Broconne's Wiring Adventure

[beelzerob]

what I did with our smokes was I purchased GE ESL 350 series smokes and gave them to the contractor to install. They had all the requirements as far as code was concerned, which were main power, battery backup and interconnected. They also have the relay in them that gets triggered upon a detection, so there was my notification. The mains power and the LV relay are all part of the same plug...dunno how that is ok as far as HV and LV in the same box....

My actual connection to those LV wires is outside the gang box...so maybe they're ok the same way ALC is ok having LV and HV in the same box.

 

[felixrosbergen]

what I did with our smokes was I purchased GE ESL 350 series smokes and gave them to the contractor to install. They had all the requirements as far as code was concerned, which were main power, battery backup and interconnected. They also have the relay in them that gets triggered upon a detection, so there was my notification. The mains power and the LV relay are all part of the same plug...dunno how that is ok as far as HV and LV in the same box....

My actual connection to those LV wires is outside the gang box...so maybe they're ok the same way ALC is ok having LV and HV in the same box.

That seems like the way to go....wish i would have done that.... if the device comes with the LV and HV on the same plug it must be ok...likely the upped the insulation value on the LV wires..

 

[AceCannon]

Electric question for the weekend sparky's out there...

In the family room we wanted to install two or more floor outlets for lamps (I am opposed to lamps, as I think they will ruin the reliability of my lighting control - unless I can find a way to circumvent the local control) - but someone else in the house is a big lamp fan..

I would like to install these floor outlets myself after we move in for a few reasons:
(1) The builder charges $160 per outlet. Yikes
(2) I don't think we are 100% settled on the room layout and I would like to put the outlets in after we have our furniture placed.

Now, that being said, I do want to control these outlets with an ALC relay switch in the future. So the question is, it is possible (code and physically) to pre-wire a wall switch for floor outlets. If so, how would I describe it to the builder. Looking at a simple wiring diagram: Wiring Diagram I am not sure what to ask for. The plan would be to have romex in the basement hanging from the ceiling that I could then run over to the first outlet and from there wire to the others on that switch. So, the question is how can that be pre-wired such that the romex in the basement isn't live (which I imagine would violate code big time) and then when I install the floor outlets I can hook it up to that switch?

I had my electrician run a switched circuit to an outlet by the nightstand in each bedroom. Half the outlet will be always hot, half switched. And I intend to use dimmers. There are special outlets that won't let you plug anything in except the specific lamp that has been fitted with a special plug for the outlet. (see Lutron part # NTR-15-DFDU-xx) This makes it "up to code," but if my outlets are behind the bed or something, I may not worry about using the special outlets at all. The switches on the lamps themselves may get removed to increase reliability.

For floor outlets in non-bedrooms (floor lamps, etc), our HV wires are run underneath the floor, to the general intended spot, and not terminated. The contractor and electrician recommended we wait until the marble flooring is installed and we know exactly where the furniture will go. They will then cut holes in the floor and install the electrical boxes and outlets, completing the installation, to code.

 

[broconne]

what I did with our smokes was I purchased GE ESL 350 series smokes and gave them to the contractor to install. They had all the requirements as far as code was concerned, which were main power, battery backup and interconnected. They also have the relay in them that gets triggered upon a detection, so there was my notification. The mains power and the LV relay are all part of the same plug...dunno how that is ok as far as HV and LV in the same box....

My actual connection to those LV wires is outside the gang box...so maybe they're ok the same way ALC is ok having LV and HV in the same box.

Those look nice. Do you know if you can skip the backup battery if you have the LV connection? Would rather not go around replacing batteries specially, when it could draw on the security panels main battery when needed.

It is odd, looks like you need account with GE to get a look at the installation manual. weird.

 

[broconne]

I had my electrician run a switched circuit to an outlet by the nightstand in each bedroom. Half the outlet will be always hot, half switched. And I intend to use dimmers. There are special outlets that won't let you plug anything in except the specific lamp that has been fitted with a special plug for the outlet. (see Lutron part # NTR-15-DFDU-xx) This makes it "up to code," but if my outlets are behind the bed or something, I may not worry about using the special outlets at all. The switches on the lamps themselves may get removed to increase reliability.

For floor outlets in non-bedrooms (floor lamps, etc), our HV wires are run underneath the floor, to the general intended spot, and not terminated. The contractor and electrician recommended we wait until the marble flooring is installed and we know exactly where the furniture will go. They will then cut holes in the floor and install the electrical boxes and outlets, completing the installation, to code.

Let me know if you find a way to replace lamp sockets with an always on kind with no switch.. I browsed home depot and lowes and couldn't find any.

 

[AceCannon]

Let me know if you find a way to replace lamp sockets with an always on kind with no switch.. I browsed home depot and lowes and couldn't find any.

What about unscrewing the little black turny knob thingy from the socket?

 

[broconne]

Let me know if you find a way to replace lamp sockets with an always on kind with no switch.. I browsed home depot and lowes and couldn't find any.

What about unscrewing the little black turny knob thingy from the socket?

Heh - how low tech!

 

[beelzerob]

Those look nice. Do you know if you can skip the backup battery if you have the LV connection? Would rather not go around replacing batteries specially, when it could draw on the security panels main battery when needed.

It is odd, looks like you need account with GE to get a look at the installation manual. weird.

Ya, I seem to remember having to register to download their smoke manual too. It's a pain, but at least free!

I'm pretty sure you can't skip the battery unless you make some mods to the thing. I believe it even has a latch that prevents the smoke from being installed without a battery in place.

 

[broconne]

Alright - now i have a smoke sensor dilemma...

The house comes with 5 120V smokes.. 2 in each hallway, one in each bedroom. I had in my LV budget 5 pre-wires for smoke detectors. So, I think I have two choices each with drawbacks and wants some opinions here.

(1) Homerun LV wires next to or above or otherwise make accessible from the 120V smoke location 18/4. When I move in and install an HAI or Elk, cut the breaker to these smoke detectors (I assume they will be on their own breaker??) and fish out the 18/4 replace with these smokes and hope the hole is the same size. The downside here is that my HAI has to be working or we have no smoke detection.. "gulp" pressure.

(2) Homerun LV wires near the HV smokes. Wire those to the panel once I get it. Upside is I have two levels of protection. Downside is a lot more ceiling clutter. There will be two thing to silence for false alarms. I will have to run around replacing batteries or replace the HV smokes with ones that have built in rechargeable batteries.

(3) Alright smart internet people. Is there a third way? Can I homerun LV smokes not to a panel and connect them in some way that is code compliant? I really don't want to have to buy a panel through the builder..?

 

[beelzerob]

I'm not sure exactly what your goal is for the smoke detectors, so I can't offer a complete solution.

I know for sure that I would NOT have my smoke or fire detection be dependent on any other device, even hardware. The smokes should work and be interconnected if all else in the house has failed, and if all power in the house has failed, for a long time.

The smokes will probably be on their own breaker...mine are, though they share it with a bedroom.

One thing I know some people do is they get a single GE ESL 350CX and replace one of their existing smoke detectors with it. The 350 CX will close its relay if it detects the tandem line (so in other words, if the other smokes go off) as well as if it detects smoke itself. It gives you a means of monitoring the regular hardwired normal smokes.

 

[broconne]

I'm not sure exactly what your goal is for the smoke detectors, so I can't offer a complete solution.

Main goal is not to die in a fire.

I know for sure that I would NOT have my smoke or fire detection be dependent on any other device, even hardware. The smokes should work and be interconnected if all else in the house has failed, and if all power in the house has failed, for a long time.

Good point - I guess a good compromise is to replace the builder models with more accurate and less error prone detection systems.

One thing I know some people do is they get a single GE ESL 350CX and replace one of their existing smoke detectors with it. The 350 CX will close its relay if it detects the tandem line (so in other words, if the other smokes go off) as well as if it detects smoke itself. It gives you a means of monitoring the regular hardwired normal smokes.

That is an option and would cost me a bit less. However, I think the huge trade off is you don't know where the fire is...

I guess I am looking for the best of both worlds. My goals are:

(1) Foolproof - even in a power outage.
(2) Not have to replace batteries all the time.
(3) One alarm goes off, they all go off.
(4) I can look and see which one is going off.

I guess I am looking for a HV/LV solution - Where is OnQ/ALC for smokes when you need it! :-

 

[broconne]

Deck -

Room Purpose: Place to grill. Parties might spill over here.

H/A Equipment:
Very little, the room has an occupancy/motion sensor pre-wire for turning the lights on and off.


Security/Safety:
(1) None - it is like the Corvair of decks.


Lighting:
There is a a single light out here. The control for it is in the breakfast room. (FYI: I just updated the breakfast room)



H/A Goals:
(1) Turn on the lights when occupied
(2) Turn off lights when unoccupied for a duration.


Audio:
Two Speakers. Ok, all you Nuvo users out there. I have a few questions about Nuvo and if it will work how I am hoping it will.
(1) Can I slave the deck zone to he covered deck zone controller and turn the zone on and off from that controller?
(2) Can I have independent volumes for slaved zones or at least "differential volumes". So perhaps the deck is -10 db and the covered deck is -15db. I up the volume and the deck goes to -9 and covered deck to -14?

I am asking because I really have no place to put a grand concerto controller for the deck. I only really have space near this area for one controller (Right as you leave the breakfast room to step on the covered deck).



The Deck Layout:

 

[beelzerob]

Hehe...well, good goal.

I guess I am looking for the best of both worlds. My goals are:

(1) Foolproof - even in a power outage.
(2) Not have to replace batteries all the time.
(3) One alarm goes off, they all go off.
(4) I can look and see which one is going off.

I guess I am looking for a HV/LV solution - Where is OnQ/ALC for smokes when you need it! :-

It sounds like the GE ESL smokes are what you want then, as they do all of those things except for #2...so it depends on what you mean by "all the time." The dummy electrician put the batteries in the smokes, but then didn't get around to wiring the plugs for a week or more. Well, by then there was a constant chirping from 10 smoke alarms in a box in the basement...you could hear it from outside!

Since then, almost a year now, we've not had to replace a single battery. I don't know when we'll have to. But even once a year (which is usually recommended anyway), that's not so bad. Another way to consider it is...if all of your smokes get their backup power from a single battery...then you've now introduced a single point of failure, too. Granted it's only in a loss-of-main-power scenario, but still. At least with each having its own battery, there's redundancy.

The GE ESL 350 CC smoke triggers its relay when IT senses smoke, not when the tandem line goes off. The 350 CX does both. So what I did was used all 350 CC's and a single 350 CX. That way, for every smoke alarm, I should get 2 indications...one from the smoke alarm that detected, and one from the 350 CX that heard it via the tandem line. So that way, not only do you know which smoke went off, but you have some redundancy too. And if I'm getting only one smoke indication, then I know the 350CX detected the smoke.

Looking back, I do begin to wonder if I REALLY needed to know exactly where the fire indication was. It was kind of a more gee-whiz thing than anything else...since our house is pretty open in floor plan, I can visually see about 5 different smokes as soon as I come out the bedroom. But, if that alarm is in the basement, I think I'd rather know right away. It was expensive replacing all the smokes with the ESL's, but I'm thinking still worth it.

The downside is that now 2 of our smokes are giving the indication that the smoke chamber needs to be replaced. I need to order those, in bulk I guess. So really, with these it appears that the batteries aren't the problem...the smoke chamber is. I guess it needs to be replaced periodically. I wonder if the fact we have a wood fireplace is affecting the lifespan on those at all.

 

[IVB]

Audio:
Two Speakers. Ok, all you Nuvo users out there. I have a few questions about Nuvo and if it will work how I am hoping it will.
(1) Can I slave the deck zone to he covered deck zone controller and turn the zone on and off from that controller?
(2) Can I have independent volumes for slaved zones or at least "differential volumes". So perhaps the deck is -10 db and the covered deck is -15db. I up the volume and the deck goes to -9 and covered deck to -14?

By "slaved zones", do you mean a secondary keypad a la the concerto one (pictured below) to control the same zone as the primary keypad? I didn't think the GC had that, did it?

 

[broconne]

Audio:
Two Speakers. Ok, all you Nuvo users out there. I have a few questions about Nuvo and if it will work how I am hoping it will.
(1) Can I slave the deck zone to he covered deck zone controller and turn the zone on and off from that controller?
(2) Can I have independent volumes for slaved zones or at least "differential volumes". So perhaps the deck is -10 db and the covered deck is -15db. I up the volume and the deck goes to -9 and covered deck to -14?

By "slaved zones", do you mean a secondary keypad a la the concerto one (pictured below) to control the same zone as the primary keypad? I didn't think the GC had that, did it?

Nope, that wasn't what I was thinking.

Here are snippets from the GC manual, although I am still not sure if it does what I want.

You will notice that the zone tab contains 20 entries for zone
Control Pads. The system can accommodate a total of
20Control Pads by using the slave function in the “Edit Zone
Properties” window. A slave Control Pad is homerun to the EZ
Port, but automatically shares the same functions and works
in tandem with the main zone Control Pad. Up to three slave
Control Pads can operate on a single zone

This drop-down menu is used to assign additional
“slave” Control Pads to a zone. Up to 20 Control Pads can be
used in an installation. The EZ Port hub is equipped with 20
RJ45 ports to accommodate all the system's Control Pads.
This is a useful feature for large rooms where more than one
Control Pad is desired. If slave Control Pads are used, we
suggest that you disable the IR pass-through on those to
prevent cross-communication. The Slave To function can
also be used to tie two or more zones together under the
control of a single Control

Slaved to Zone: A feature of Grand Concerto is the ability
to slave zones together. This is most useful for
controlling a zone with more than one Control Pad, or
the converse, which is controlling more than one zone
with one Control Pad. Simply scroll to the zone you wish
to slave to and select it from the list.

So -
I think I can control both zones from a single location. However, no idea if I can set differential volume or have one zone on and one zone off. I could probably do that with CQC if need be.