Broconne's Wiring Adventure

[AceCannon]

My TV in the "keeping room" will be over the fireplace. Because there is no other good location. So I plan to use a mount that is capable of tilting the screen down somewhat. It also needs to be able to be seen from the kitchen. There are tons of different kinds of mounts out there now. . .

It will have to do for us!

 

[broconne]

Garage - Floor 1 Man Area
I really wish this room was about 3 feet longer and wider. I think cars and just everything will be tight.

Room Purpose: Parking Cars, walkway for trash, working on cars - greasy things, a work bench, etc.

H/A Equipment:
The room has an occupancy/motion sensor pre-wire for turning the lights on and off.
Outside the garage door has another occupancy/motion sensor


Security/Safety:
(1) Door Contact
(2) Garage Door Contacts
(3) Heat Sensor
(4) Camera pre-wire for the driveway


Lighting:
There are 5 ALC/OnQ prewires in this room. The set of three at the front are for the ceiling mount lights, the track lights, and the lantern lights outside the garage door. The other set of two controls the flood light and the lantern light outside the door. Those are place together because I think it will be common that I am taking the trash out through that door and/or rolling it to the curb in which point I will want that light outside the door and the flood light. The switch for the latern lights outside the garage doors will be a 3 way switch with the other switch being near the front door in the foyer since one may want to turn on all the latern lights (porch, garage) to "welcome people to the home".


H/A Goals:
(1) Turn on the lights when occupied
(2) Turn off lights when unoccupied for a duration.
(3) Turn on the flood lights and or lantern lights when motion outside the garage.
(4) Automatically close the garage doors when left open and house empty/alarm armed.
(5) Welcome us home when the garage door is open (lights turn on, etc).


Safety/Security Goals:
(1) Detect a fire with a rate of rise sensor/heat sensor.
(2) Engage a camera when motion is detected outside the garage.


Audio:
Two Speakers and a volume control.


Misc:
There is a whole house vacuum inlet for cleaning out cars, etc.


The Garage Layout:

 

[kurtmccaslin]

There's plenty of debate on placement, I WOULD be interested in knowing if there's an industry standard.

Because gas is heavier than air, there's an argument for placement nearer the floor. But then it's suggested that in the typical house, there's enough air circulation in a room that gas will still be sensed almost anywhere.

Actually natural gas is lighter than air, but propane is heavier than air. The LEL Lower Explosive Limit about 5% for natural gas or 2.5% for propane. Most gas detectors will read out in percentage of the LEL-- with alarms typically set at 10-25% of the LEL.

Gas companies add an odorizing agent to natural gas or propane. It is possible to detect it by smell long before it reaches the LEL. For that reason most house explosions occur when nobody is home. What do you do when gas is detected and nobody is home? Turn on an exhaust fan? Open a window? Call the fire dept? It is an interesting question.

CO (carbon monoxide) can be even more dangerous because you cannot smell it. Suggest that you consider a combo gas and CO detector.

 

[felixrosbergen]

broconne:

I ended up with a GE stainless steel model that is cabinet depth. The cost of it was about $2700 i think. The real builtins that you can have cabinet faces on are much more expensive...the subzero stuff for example is in the 8k range or so. The model i have has 2 limitations that we care about, but we let ethetics win over functionality.

We have this one:

http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProdu...&SITEID=GEA

As mentioned before it is cheaper because they don't have to put the compressors on the top like they do with the subzero's. The does mean you have less depth and you will notice this somewhat. Generally the rear half of your shelves will be empty anyway or full of crap that you should have thrown out already, but where we noticed it is the Coca Cola fridgepacks which will not fit in this model.

Also since the freezer is on the bottom rather than on the side the icemakes (which needs to be in the freezer section) is also on the bottom and the dispenser is only for water. The icemakes is interio in the bottom and doesnt do crushed, etc, but makes cubes just fine.

Not sure what the builder's problem was with the built-ins, maybe he can explain it to you. For him to just say no is a bit crude i would say.

On tying into the HV smokes i have been looking, there seem to be some methods to do it, but nothing i have found is a simply out of the box solution. Although since it's life safety it should be higher on my list it currently is not a priority (the smokes will work, but are just not tied into the system). When the time comes i'll research it some more. Running a 22/4 to each of the smoke locations may not be a bad idea (not sure if it would need to be 18/4 firewire) so you could replace the HV ones with 4 wire LV ones later. I wish i had done that, at least for the one in the ground floor that i don't have good access to anymore.

Something else i haven't seen mentioned is a pre-wire for water sensors. You may want one in the laundry room in case the washer springs a leak. For other locations (at the water heater, etc) it's probably easy enough to get it in later. some have gone so far as to have them under the sink in the bathroom cabinets, but i won't be taking it that far.

 

[broconne]

I ended up with a GE stainless steel model that is cabinet depth. The cost of it was about $2700 i think. The real builtins that you can have cabinet faces on are much more expensive...the subzero stuff for example is in the 8k range or so. The model i have has 2 limitations that we care about, but we let ethetics win over functionality.

We have this one:

http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProdu...&SITEID=GEA

As mentioned before it is cheaper because they don't have to put the compressors on the top like they do with the subzero's. The does mean you have less depth and you will notice this somewhat. Generally the rear half of your shelves will be empty anyway or full of crap that you should have thrown out already, but where we noticed it is the Coca Cola fridgepacks which will not fit in this model.

Also since the freezer is on the bottom rather than on the side the icemakes (which needs to be in the freezer section) is also on the bottom and the dispenser is only for water. The icemakes is interio in the bottom and doesnt do crushed, etc, but makes cubes just fine.

Not sure what the builder's problem was with the built-ins, maybe he can explain it to you. For him to just say no is a bit crude i would say.

Basically, for him it has been a warranty "nightmare". The fridge door keeps hitting the surrounding door and he has had to get the cabinet company out there several times and the home owner is still unhappy. Basically, the builder doesn't want to deal with it again since it failed so poorly last time. He is willing to let us work it out with the cabinet company but he doesn't want to warranty it or be a go between.

That is a nice fridge. Do the doors stick out at all? We looked at a kitchenaid where just the door stuck out - that was 3k. I still really want the 80inch tall bosch french door. But that is another 2k.. so that is unlikely to happen.

On tying into the HV smokes i have been looking, there seem to be some methods to do it, but nothing i have found is a simply out of the box solution. Although since it's life safety it should be higher on my list it currently is not a priority (the smokes will work, but are just not tied into the system). When the time comes i'll research it some more. Running a 22/4 to each of the smoke locations may not be a bad idea (not sure if it would need to be 18/4 firewire) so you could replace the HV ones with 4 wire LV ones later. I wish i had done that, at least for the one in the ground floor that i don't have good access to anymore.

Hmmm - That is a good point.. I could run an extra 22/4 to each one.. I guess my question is - do you think it is more "safe" to be tied to the elk rather than HV? I guess it would give dial out ability - but I wonder if having HV without programming has a better chance of saving the family than me screwing up the elk somehow

Something else i haven't seen mentioned is a pre-wire for water sensors. You may want one in the laundry room in case the washer springs a leak. For other locations (at the water heater, etc) it's probably easy enough to get it in later. some have gone so far as to have them under the sink in the bathroom cabinets, but i won't be taking it that far.

I have a pipe chase planned for behind the washing machine for a water sensor, current sensor for washing machine/dryer.

 

[broconne]

Screened Deck -

I need some help here, specifically "code" help for outside switches.

Room Purpose: Eating, relaxing when the temperatures permit.

H/A Equipment:
The room has an occupancy/motion sensor pre-wire for turning the lights on and off.
The room has temperature/humidity sensor


Security/Safety:
(1) Door Contact



Lighting:
There is a fan-pre wire that will also drive a light. Here is my question. In the model home's the controls for audio/lighting and fan are on the inside of the house. Is this required by code? I would like to have local control of all three - I will probably mostly drive them from CQC over a Nokia. But outside control would be good. If code doesn't allow that, I need to go back and modify the breakfast room controls.

H/A Goals:
(1) Turn on the lights when occupied
(2) Turn off lights when unoccupied for a duration.
(3) Turn on and off the fan if occupied and temperature dictates.

Pipe Chase:
The pipe chase is for a future TV in the corner.


Audio:
Two Speakers / can volume control go outside per code?



The Covered Deck Layout:

 

[broconne]

Electric question for the weekend sparky's out there...

In the family room we wanted to install two or more floor outlets for lamps (I am opposed to lamps, as I think they will ruin the reliability of my lighting control - unless I can find a way to circumvent the local control) - but someone else in the house is a big lamp fan..

I would like to install these floor outlets myself after we move in for a few reasons:
(1) The builder charges $160 per outlet. Yikes
(2) I don't think we are 100% settled on the room layout and I would like to put the outlets in after we have our furniture placed.

Now, that being said, I do want to control these outlets with an ALC relay switch in the future. So the question is, it is possible (code and physically) to pre-wire a wall switch for floor outlets. If so, how would I describe it to the builder. Looking at a simple wiring diagram: Wiring Diagram I am not sure what to ask for. The plan would be to have romex in the basement hanging from the ceiling that I could then run over to the first outlet and from there wire to the others on that switch. So, the question is how can that be pre-wired such that the romex in the basement isn't live (which I imagine would violate code big time) and then when I install the floor outlets I can hook it up to that switch?

 

[broconne]

Electric question for the weekend sparky's out there...

In the family room we wanted to install two or more floor outlets for lamps (I am opposed to lamps, as I think they will ruin the reliability of my lighting control - unless I can find a way to circumvent the local control) - but someone else in the house is a big lamp fan..

I would like to install these floor outlets myself after we move in for a few reasons:
(1) The builder charges $160 per outlet. Yikes
(2) I don't think we are 100% settled on the room layout and I would like to put the outlets in after we have our furniture placed.

Now, that being said, I do want to control these outlets with an ALC relay switch in the future. So the question is, it is possible (code and physically) to pre-wire a wall switch for floor outlets. If so, how would I describe it to the builder. Looking at a simple wiring diagram: Wiring Diagram I am not sure what to ask for. The plan would be to have romex in the basement hanging from the ceiling that I could then run over to the first outlet and from there wire to the others on that switch. So, the question is how can that be pre-wired such that the romex in the basement isn't live (which I imagine would violate code big time) and then when I install the floor outlets I can hook it up to that switch?

About 15 seconds after I posted that I realized the easiest way to do this would be to have the single pole switch wired to a switch right below it in the basement which I could just replace with a junction box and wire the outlets from there.. duh

 

[beelzerob]

Well, for the pre-wire, all you're really asking for is romex from a switch box in the wall down to the basement ceiling, right? You can make all the other connections you need down there. If neither ends of the romex are connected to any power source, and assuming they end in a covered gang box, I'd be interested in knowing if that still breaks code.

*shrug*

But I am hardly a sparky at all, even during the weekends.

 

[broconne]

Well, for the pre-wire, all you're really asking for is romex from a switch box in the wall down to the basement ceiling, right? You can make all the other connections you need down there. If neither ends of the romex are connected to any power source, and assuming they end in a covered gang box, I'd be interested in knowing if that still breaks code.

*shrug*

But I am hardly a sparky at all, even during the weekends.

Yeah, I think if I have a covered gang box in the basement with wirenuts on it I would be in good shape. I hope I could do that and save the $50 on an outlet

 

[beelzerob]

good luck with that....the electrician our home builder used charged "per opening", which basically meant per electrical endpoint (not counting at the breaker panel). That was fine, and we were able to work with that...until we discovered that the bathroom fan the BUILDER had decided to put in had a fan, a light, and a nightlight, all of which were switch controllable. Well, that equaled six openings. That sure chewed through the electrical allowance fast, since we had 3 of those installed in the house. It took some yelling to get that all sorted out. I told them to rip them out and put in normal fans so we could use those spare 6 openings towards additions we'd actually requested. We ended up getting what we wanted, so I'm not displeased.

We'd get charged for stupid crap, like a quad outlet counting as 2 openings, even though no extra effort was expended to put it in.
So, don't be surprised if you don't end up saving very much, no matter what the wire does or where it goes.

 

[broconne]

good luck with that....the electrician our home builder used charged "per opening", which basically meant per electrical endpoint (not counting at the breaker panel). That was fine, and we were able to work with that...until we discovered that the bathroom fan the BUILDER had decided to put in had a fan, a light, and a nightlight, all of which were switch controllable. Well, that equaled six openings. That sure chewed through the electrical allowance fast, since we had 3 of those installed in the house. It took some yelling to get that all sorted out. I told them to rip them out and put in normal fans so we could use those spare 6 openings towards additions we'd actually requested. We ended up getting what we wanted, so I'm not displeased.

We'd get charged for stupid crap, like a quad outlet counting as 2 openings, even though no extra effort was expended to put it in.
So, don't be surprised if you don't end up saving very much, no matter what the wire does or where it goes.

Rumor is, from talking to others that worked with this builder, that a lot of things he will let "slide". Like when I asked him to stagger stud the walls for the home theater in the basement, that was no charge. So, we will see if that is still true when I go and propose this - of course I am not going to sour the relationship this early on a $50 outlet either.

 

[beelzerob]

Hehe...well then, that's a good plan. Ya, we also had to pick our battles early on...it was simply too early in the process to start hating them. The last people I ever wanted to piss off were the ones building our house.

 

[beelzerob]

Garage - Floor 1 Man Area
I really wish this room was about 3 feet longer and wider. I think cars and just everything will be tight.

Hehe...I remember this problem too. I am NOT a garage person (as in auto mechanically inclined)...but our last house seriously suffered from enough depth. We could get our silverado truck in there, but with only 3 inches to spare. Not exactly practical since it cut off the house door from the workshop area in the 3rd car bay. I had BEGGED the builder to give us a price to add 5 ' to the depth of the garage, but they weren't interested in doing anything custom, no matter how much. So I put it on our 5-year house re-customization plan (thankfully we moved after 2 years instead).

I made sure not to suffer that again this time. We have a 24' wide garage and about 40' long. It's actually 3-car, the 3rd car garage area is "in front" of where the cars normally park, and has a side entrance. And there's also a small square workshop area, so it doesn't interfere with anything else.

Depending on the floorplan/roofline, extending a garage usually isn't all that hard or expensive. Is it too late for you to consider it?

 

[broconne]

Oh, and have a good plan for your smoke/fire sensors. If you plan to install ELK or similar after you move in you will need some sort of solution in place to pass inspection. I have AC hardwired smoke sensors that are all interconnected which came as standard from the builder and allow passage of inspection. I didn't pre-wire a LV run to each so now I'm not so sure how to tie them all in. Luckilly there is only 1 on the ground floor (open floor plan) and all the ones on the upstairs i can get to from the attic to add LV wire to them.

I am sure this is a dumb question, but in an M1 on HAI you can set it up such that if one LV smokes goes off all the others go off?

Hmm, if there is HV running to the smokes can I ever run additional LV? I would think that would violate code just like it does for ALC/OnQ without sheathing... Integrating all the smokes into the panel makes more sense now that I think about it, turn on lights for exiting, etc...

Anyone have experience on how to prepare to replace these with LV smokes and still be code compliant?