ALC/OnQ Hardware Question

[AceCannon]

Just to play devil's advocate, I contend that both the distribution hub and the branch hub are wasted in this setup.

I believe the sole purpose of the distribution hub is to land wires in its punch down blocks. The hub's job is to land wires and amplify signals and provide a "new" 500 foot wiring limit. You aren't landing any wires on the distro hub or the branch hub, and since all your lights are wired to the hub, you are using its 500 foot limit, but not the 500 foot limit of the branch itself. Perhaps it would make more sense for the first 66 block segment to attach directly to the branch, and the second segment to connect to the hub.

Heck if you paid for the distro hub and branch, why not just land your connections on it? I'll bet you could put all the connections from your 66 block onto the two ALC devices instead. Is there some downside to wiring the way ALC intended (i.e. landing to their punchdowns)? (Devil's advocate -- no criticism intended)

--Bob

P.S. I just finished the wiring layout for my house. It contains 11 Hubs in 4 locations for 97 switches and 59 AUXes. To get around the 500'/branch limit I need lots of hubs! The 66blk is $12/12loads (assuming several AUXes). The hub is $40/9 loads (and 10 AUXes) so it is a bit more expensive.

1. I think you are pretty much spot-on, at least as my setup is at present. (except note that each of the two rooms is terminated to a separate punch down on the branch hub - all the loads do not go to a single punch down.)

2. The only reason I picked up the distribution hub was for the rj45 jack. The controller comes with the rj45 socket cable designed to connect with a cat5e cable. Silly, perhaps, but true. $26.00, and the plan is to land future branch hubs to it.

3. My plan for ALC has been to start with these two rooms, then expand as time and economics allow. So, tentatively, I will add 66 blocks and connect each room's switches (collectively) to a single, unique spot on the branch hubs. I wanted the amplification of the branch hub and the trouble shooting of the enhanced hub's DIP switches. I figure it isn't likely a single room's switches will exceed the 500ft limit. But there is NO question that my eventual installation will exceed it. Clearly there are multiple ways to do this successfully, however.

No offense taken at all. I appreciate the analysis and healthy repartee.

Pic: ugly mess of a portion of the as-yet unused cat5e going to every gangbox in the house for future ALC. There is another big wad coming out of the floor.

 

[sbwright]

sbwright, you're on the right track here.

Where possible i would join the polling loop wires (white and yellow on the switches i believe) together where you have multiple switches in the same gangbox/location. This will cut down dramtically on the total length of your communication bus. I don't the length is a significant issue for the On/Common/Off wires, some voltage drop may occur, but i doubt it woudl be a real issue since there is no reall communication going on there.

I believe that the hubs essentially have a signal amp in them (powered by the 12v) and that the output of that amp is shared across all 9 ports, so it's not 500ft per port, but the total that counts. I hope to get this confirmed somehow..

Between the lot of us i think we are starting to have a pretty good understanding of this system and it's probably a good idea to get the 'designs' vetted by the group before jumping in and spending $$$$.

I havent' messed with my ALC install (12 active switches or so at this time with 6 NIB) in a few months but need to pick this up again to get some more things automated. Anybody hear from Tony Stewart lately?

For Broconne's answer #2 I am assuming that you either have mutiple switches daisychained and connected to each of the 9 ports on the branch hub, you cascade the branch hubs(4) to get the total of 31 puchdowns, or use the 66 blocks? But then again the document says the hub only supports 9 ALC addressable switches, makes me wonder if that is due to only having the 9 physical connection points, something doesn't add up here.

In post #6 the powerpoint slide indicates that the Branch Hub "Extends ALC branch cable additional 1000 feet(total 1500 feet)" this is not consistent with the other documentation and it is not clear as to:

1. 
   1) Is the 1500' for the entire branch length.
   2) Is it 1000' between the branch hub and dist module and 500' for the remaining switch wiring.
   3) Strictly for the wiring between the branch hub and distribution module.

If the 1500' its for the whole branch wiring length that would be great but sounds to good to be true. As with you we need to know the right answer before proceeding.

According to this section of the ALC/Onq Technical Guide any single switch should not be greater than 500' from the interface. Sounds like in a homerun installation as long as each switch individually connected to a Branch Hub or Distribution Module with no longer than 500' of wire would be acceptable



Anyone with a current setup and a spool with 500' of wire up to the challenge???

 

[beelzerob]

Ick, Ace. Couldn't you at least stick to a single color?? I did all my lighting cat5 in yellow (and maybe 1 or 2 orange thrown in once I ran out). All the cat5 is color coded, makes initial organization a lot easier!

 

[AceCannon]

Ick, Ace. Couldn't you at least stick to a single color?? I did all my lighting cat5 in yellow (and maybe 1 or 2 orange thrown in once I ran out). All the cat5 is color coded, makes initial organization a lot easier!

Yeah, that was the original plan.

When the guys I hired to help run wire began, it was often easier to pull 3 or 4 runs at the same time. I didn't have 4 boxes of the same color for them to use. And the job needed to be done THEN, so the project could move forward. So it isn't pretty. I am hoping future cable management will clean it up at least a little.

If I had known more precisely how much cat5e I needed for each purpose, I would have ordered differently! Live and learn.

 

[beelzerob]

Ah, I see. Ya, I agree with your priorities...get it DONE, then worry about making it look nice.

Someone must have mentioned this issue to me, as I was able to order my stuff in boxes of 500 ft instead of 1000 so I could pull the 5 rg59 all at once. I never would have thought of it myself, and ya, having to make separate pulls over and over again for a single box of wire would have made the wiring take forever.

 

[rbroders]

My current understanding of the whole "HUB" amplification thing is that each hub creates a new output side with a 500' total wiring limit, and it also provides some punch down blocks. I believe the DATA wires on all the punch down blocks are connected together. Punching swithch A1 to port 1 and A2 to port 2 is just a convenience, and you would have the same wiring length limitation if you punched them all to port 1 (via a 66 block, for instance).

The HUB also amplifies the source signal, and can be up to 1000' from the branch source (the controller or the lighting expansion module). This 1000' bonus is only available if you don't have any switches wired directly to the branch source. (OPTION 2 SBWRIGHT)

You would think it would be possible to "cascade" hubs by wiring the hub to one of the ports on another hub and achieve significantly greater total distance from the branch source. However, additional hubs are not intended to be wired to output ports (1-9) on the previous hub, but rather to the input via port 10.

--Bob

P.S. It would be interesting to know what kind of protocol ALC uses for the data. RS-485? Do you think they have a collision detection system?

 

[sbwright]

rbroders, this was my understanding as well, till I started reading the additional material.

Now I am not so sure. I don't have a hub to look at the circuitry. I'am thinking I need to order the equipment and do some testing prior to installing the wiring. I really want to do a homerun install and probably still can, I will just need to be picky(wire length) when chosing what switch wires to join on any given branch.

 

[rbroders]

I haven't seen a hub in person either. Maybe someone who has can try to see if the circuitry is wired individually to the ports or if the DATA lines are all in parallel.

Which document did you see which questions the hub amplification wiring theory? My understanding came from the HUB installation instructions IS-0235

--Bob

 

[sbwright]

I haven't seen a hub in person either. Maybe someone who has can try to see if the circuitry is wired individually to the ports or if the DATA lines are all in parallel.

Which document did you see which questions the hub amplification wiring theory? My understanding came from the HUB installation instructions IS-0235

--Bob

In post #17 above I included a section from the ALC/Onq Advanced Lighting Control - Technical Guide document #1307573. It has recommendations identified for when the total branch circuit wiring must be greater than 500'.

 

[rbroders]

Ah yes, I have that document as well. My theory is that TG #1307573 was written before hubs were invented. Lets face it, without hubs, it would be very difficult to have 31 loads on a branch and stay within the 500' limit. If you have two switches per location, your locations need to be 31 feet apart max. This document says if you can't stay within 500', split your wiring into multiple runs and try to keep each run below 500', and the total below 1000'. It basically relaxes the 500' limit a bit.

When hubs arrived on the scene they essentially multiply the limit, and allow for homerun wiring if you prefer (that is what I am attempting).

--Bob

 

[Ranger Digital]

The best advantage for me using hubs are the switches that can turn off each of the nine legs one at a time for trouble shooting. I have NEVER installed ALC without having to trouble shoot. WHy? not a fault of the "system" but all those tiny little wires and mulititude of connections. I always manage to have to redo at least one butt connection.

The enhanced branch hubs save the day.

 

[AceCannon]

The best advantage for me using hubs are the switches that can turn off each of the nine legs one at a time for trouble shooting. I have NEVER installed ALC without having to trouble shoot. WHy? not a fault of the "system" but all those tiny little wires and mulititude of connections. I always manage to have to redo at least one butt connection.

The enhanced branch hubs save the day.

The 66 blocks do essentially the same thing (I would argue EXACTLY the same thing) for quite a bit less $. Just to point that out.

 

[felixrosbergen]

I will look again this evening, but i'm fairly sure that the data lines of all the ports on the hub are paralleled of each other so this means connecting 9 load together on a 66 block and then a single 'trunk' line over to the hub woudl essentially be the same as landing 9 loads individualy on the Hub. The hub is essentially an AMP with some individual punch down block, but they might as well have provided a single set of terminals and have us twist and stick all the cat5 conductors in at the same location. The end result woudl be the same, but a lot less organized.

Can somebody further eleborate on the connection of hubs of a other hub and this port 10 business? It has me a bit confused. If you went hub to hub to thub to hub,etc. Can you essentially put a light as far away from the interface as you want?

Hopefully TS will chime in here shortly and clear up this mess...lol

 

[felixrosbergen]

ok, just came home and measured resistance across the 9 ports and found 0 resistance amongst the 9 ports thus proving the are directly linked to each other.

There was infnite resistance between the 9 ports and port then thus confirming port 10 is different and to be used for input.

Pics of the hub at this link

 

[TonyStewart]

At one point in time I thought I understood all the parts and pieces I would need to install ALC/OnQ... The pre-wiring has been done but now that I am starting to acquire parts I am second guessing and have a few questions.

I will be using HAI OmniPro for my automation panel.

I think I will need
(1) HAI ALC Interface which can support up to 124 devices and has 4 branches on it.
(2) I then connect each of those four branches to one of these? Branch Hub Which says it can control 31 devices but only has 9 punch downs - I don't understand that part -- how do I get 31 devices with 9 punch downs?

Is that the correct setup? Or am I missing something that turns the 9 punchdowns into 31 devices?

HAI does not make the ALC interface. Instead use the OnQ 364806-01 for 1 branch of 31 lights or the 364806-02 for 4 branches of 31 devices.

As for the hubs, you are right. 9 is the limit. However, it can still support up to 31 devices. Here is an example.

Put a hub in the closet and home run the cat 5 from there to the 364806-01. Then run all ALC devices in the room near that closet to the hub. Any one run can support several ALC switches and as such you can run 9 runs to the hub. Thus you are shortening the overall cable runs.

The 364736-01 enhanced hub has individual dip switches that can turn on or off any of the 9 total runs. I would not use the enhanced hub to land more than one switch on a run. It is best used for troubleshooting and putting more than one switch on a run makes it awkward to troubleshoot using the dip switches.

There is also the 364645-01 which can act as a hub but is mounted in the enclosure.

In addition --- hubs are optional as you can run all cables right to the ALC interface. I would not encourage this. Here's why.

I recently was asked to look at an install where an installer was having a hard time troubleshooting ALC. As it turned out, the home had been surged by a lighting strike and more than one ALC switch was bad on the same branch.

Since all runs were home ran and since there was no enhanced hubs (or any kind of hub) to use in identifying which ones were bad, It took a long time to unwire the polling loops one by one (at the switches) until the damaged devices were found. Had an enhanced hub(s) been installed, troubleshooting would have taken minutes.

As for troubleshooting, purchase branchtech software and the ALC interface. On this install I carried it and my laptop around the home and attached to the loops until I figured out where the bad switches were.

As for lightning protection consider this for one branch or this one for 4 branches.

I like the 66 block idea as well. But you must run a whole lot of cable. Be sure to land only one ALC switch per connection of the 66 block. You will still have to unwire the loops from the block to find a bad switch, but this is easier than pulling switches out of the wall.

Hope this helps.
Tony