Largest UPB Installation?

Just curious if anybody knows if there are any limits to the size of a UPB installation? What are some of the largest installations to date and how well do they work? And does GEN II stuff work better in big installs than GEN I? (Or does it really not matter?)

We have several customers with 10,000+ square foot installations. Those are on Gen I. The Gen II just came out recently so I don't think we have any that large yet.

I've done a few installs that were for houses in excess of 10,000 square feet. No problems in any of them with UPB, either Gen 1 or Gen 2. On one house i did put an extra phase coupler in a panel on that opposite end of the house. It didn't need it really as everything was working, but the signal strength according to upstart was a few points lower at that end of the house. I did it as a hedge to a service call, so far it's paid off, i haven't been back for any troubles.

AutomatedOutlet said:

We have several customers with 10,000+ square foot installations. Those are on Gen I. The Gen II just came out recently so I don't think we have any that large yet.

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Sorry, I meant in terms of device count rather than square feet.

Digger said:

Are you thinking of switching?

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Not really in the budget but I am looking hard at the following facts:

1- While I was (and still am) critical of UPB GEN I, I have to admit UPB GEN II addresses all of my concerns and then some.

2- The 2008 HAI catalog really got my attention and of course HAI is tightly linked to UPB.

3- In order for me to move forward with controlling my 175+ device Insteon environment there needs to be a computer interface (PLM) that can support more than 417 links. Otherwise I can't play with any new Insteon stuff like the Universal Devices ISY controllers, a Homeseer Insteon plugin, the new Insteon Touch Screens, etc. Since SmartHome has not even announced the intention of releasing a PLM that can support larger installations yet, there is no telling when (or if) I will be able to use any of the newer Insteon stuff with an installation the size of mine.

So of course I am at least researching alternatives.

Mike, those installations I was referring to have over 150 devices. Not sure of the exact count since of course we don't do installations.

I can contact the installers and see if I can get more detail for you.

Mike,

I know you said it was not in your budget right now, but have you ever considered a Homeworks Wireless system? You could start off slow with one processor and then upgrade going forward. Three processors linked together will get you 192 devices although, you may not need that many as Lutron has real Accessory Dimmers and Switches. Each P5 processor will handle 64 devices and 32 keypads.

And if you have access to fish control wires, a hybrid install of a Series 4 and then use wireless to fill in where you can't fish.

I don't know how big it is, but I know how big my house is and I had 80+ Insteon devices. You either have a large home, or 4 gang wallplates on every wall. :blink:

After all, this is your home and its one thing to like to tweak a few things, but constantly correcting failures is a PITA and really low WAF.

And I can't say enough about the power of the Lutron system. Keypads provide real indications if a zone or scene is on. So even if someone turns off a device, if others in the zone are still on, the keypad indicates such. Plus, like Insteon, a dimmer/switch can also act like a controller. And the dimmers/switches are terminal based, not pigtailed.

And the best part, it is no longer against Lutron's software license for a dealer to provide you with the programming software, so you would be free to program the system yourself.

Yes, it is expensive. Some would consider it very expensive. Dimmers are 5x Insteon, Keypads 3x (and include engraving) plus $1400 for a processor. (A hybrid Series 4/Wireless install would be much cheaper, but you need to be able to run the control wire.) But again, this is your home and getting the best is not cheap.

Just some info for you to think about.

As we speak, I'm finishing the UPStart program on a 7500 sq.ft'er with 170'ish devices. Mix of dimmers, relay switches, rcptl's and HAI 6 button keypads (x 35). The devices have been installed and addressed via HLC for about a week and all is well. Response is good. Just need to "clean it up" as, despite HAI's position to the contrary, HLC IS NOT the way to elegantly control UPB. This is my current largest install (by about 40 devices) and your timing is perfect. I'll load the UPStart file on Monday and report back (if I remember...)

Digger said:

BTW Herdfan Many thanks for the Xmas present. I could not find your email addy to thank you.

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You're welcome. It took me a bit longer to find it as it was not where I thought it was. :blink:

I beleive the answer is 250 devices on a network. I knew this question would come up someday and I have been asking about it at SA and PCS. Even though you can have 60,000+ devices in one neighborhood, the maximum devices per network is 250. I know of an installer that did over 400 in one install but it took two networks and he separated the outside loads on one network, and the inside on another. I beleive he connected them with the HAI Omni Pro but I am not sure. I can check and get back to you. That install was nearly 2 years ago.

Dave

Herdfan said:

Mike,

I know you said it was not in your budget right now, but have you ever considered a Homeworks Wireless system?

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I have not thought about at Homeworks before and I will have to look into it before deciding which way to go. UPB GEN II was just attractive because I am also looking at HAI panels... does HAI support Homeworks?

In any case, my short term solution is to abandon Insteon central controllers and stick with X-10. I can still use Insteon for device to device links like keypads and wireless remotes, but I will use X-10 when operating devices from my HA controller. This way I am not trapped by the limitations of the Insteon computer interface (PLM).

HAI doesn't work natively with Homeworks. It does interface with RadioRA but, to be honest, that combo redefines the word "Kludge". It really is a lousy install. HAI just doesn't have the driver right and there is virtually no way to make it right. Sure, you could output ASCII to a Chronos bridge or RA232 module but, c'mon, that will virtually wipe out any other message capabilities of the OPII. It's difficult for me to even consider a comparison between Homeworks and UPB. They really are two very different animals at two VVVVEEEEERRRRRRYYYYYYYY different price points.

Like someone mentioned above, I believe UPB is limited to 250 units (devices) per network. I don't believe devices in 1 network can communicate with a device in another network. I also believe you are limited to 250 links per network.

Please take my comments with a grain of salt, because I'm still learning about UPB and don't have much real world experience above a simple 3-5 device install.

My understanding of UPB 'links' is that they are similar to Insteon groups, except that there is only one set of links used throughout your UPB network. While you can have up to 417 groups on each Insteon device, with one device potentially having completely different groups than another, with UPB those 250 links are shared by all devices on your network. Links can be something as simple as a couple of switches linked together to form a virtual 3-way circuit, or a bunch of devices set to certain levels to create a lighting scene. You define your links, define what your links do, then define what devices control those links.

Unless my understanding is incorrect, the 250 link limit might be a problem for your large install - especially if you are concerned about the 417 group Insteon PLM limit.

Universal Devices will be releasing an ISY capable of programming/controlling a UPB installation.

Hopefully someone with more UPB knowledge will chime in.

CORRECTION: The Insteon 417 limit is RECORDS not GROUPS.

Also, consider downloading and playing with UPStart. Also download and read through it's manual.

http://www.pulseworx.com/Downloads_.htm

Correction:

I misunderstood the Insteon PLM limit.

While UPB is limited to 250 links, Insteon is limited to 417 RECORDS - not groups. My understanding was completely wrong. So depending on how many scenes, devices, etc. you have you could easily eat up the PLM's 417 link limit faster than UPB's 250 link limit.

MikeB said:

CORRECTION: The Insteon 417 limit is RECORDS not GROUPS.

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And that is the problem. Setting up one group can eat up a whole bunch of records. I don't think 417 records can even support 250 groups.