Z-Wave Range Issues

[vc1234]

I use HomeSeer and you can see the exact route the device uses to talk back to the HS z-wave interface. 

I never owned a Homeseer, but from what I read about it, my understanding is that it uses a serial API capable zwave  USB "stick", such as UZB/Aeotec/etc, none of which exposes the actual route a zwave packet may have taken. What they all do is to provide is a list of neighbors, i.e. potential re-transmitters.  Whether or not a specific node would be used is not possible to find out at least without writing custom firmware for the zensys chip. Then, you could possibly obtain the information about the actual route. I also looked at Z-Seer, and it appears that it provides only a list of neighbors (as any primary controller would, e.g. Leviton's). 
 
Is my understanding incorrect ?  Does HomeSeer use a zwave controller with its own firmware ?

 

[Sparkman1]

I never owned a Homeseer, but from what I read about it, my understanding is that it uses a serial API capable zwave  USB "stick", such as UZB/Aeotec/etc, none of which exposes the actual route a zwave packet may have taken. What they all do is to provide is a list of neighbors, i.e. potential re-transmitters.  Whether or not a specific node would be used is not possible to find out at least without writing custom firmware for the zensys chip. Then, you could possibly obtain the information about the actual route. I also looked at Z-Seer, and it appears that it provides only a list of neighbors (as any primary controller would, e.g. Leviton's). 
 
Is my understanding incorrect ?  Does HomeSeer use a zwave controller with its own firmware ?

 
Yes, they now have the z-net which is what I am using.  You are right, I believe that functionality only works with it.  They still support the other serial controllers, but that functionality likely does not work with them.  I no longer have a serial controller, so can't verify.  
 
Z-Seer only works with HS2 and was never upgraded to work with HS3.  And yes, all it did was create a graphical depiction of all of the neighbor relationships.
 
Cheers
Al

 

[macromark]

Is my understanding incorrect ?  Does HomeSeer use a zwave controller with its own firmware ?

We use the standard Sigma library in our own controllers. However, our systems do have the capability to set the command routes (the precise path from the controller out to the device). In many cases, this feature alone will fix communication problems*. However, in this case, the network density is simply too low. if you can't communicate adequately to the outlet in the garage, there's virtually no hope of controlling the lock next to it.  Lock communications are very picky and require clean command and return routes to work properly. I would recommend adding a few more receptacles or plug-in modules to boost network density. Then, I would recommend running a "full optimize" on the network to store return routes in the lock's built in module memory.
 
*Requires SmartStick+, Z-NET, Z-Wave.me UZB or Aeon Z-Stick GEN5.

 

[rsw686]

We use the standard Sigma library in our own controllers. However, our systems do have the capability to set the command routes (the precise path from the controller out to the device). In many cases, this feature alone will fix communication problems*. However, in this case, the network density is simply too low. if you can't communicate adequately to the outlet in the garage, there's virtually no hope of controlling the lock next to it.  Lock communications are very picky and require clean command and return routes to work properly. I would recommend adding a few more receptacles or plug-in modules to boost network density. Then, I would recommend running a "full optimize" on the network to store return routes in the lock's built in module memory.
 
*Requires SmartStick+, Z-NET, Z-Wave.me UZB or Aeon Z-Stick GEN5.

 
Would this also work with the Zee S2 controller? Can a Zee S2 controller also use a Z-NET remote interface? If so I might switch over to HomeSeer as I could at least do more troubleshooting and the Z-NET would be great for my detached shop. Does HomeSeer have the ability to add/remove pin codes from Schlage locks and to trigger events based on the code used to unlock?

 

[Sparkman1]

Would this also work with the Zee S2 controller? Can a Zee S2 controller also use a Z-NET remote interface? If so I might switch over to HomeSeer as I could at least do more troubleshooting and the Z-NET would be great for my detached shop. Does HomeSeer have the ability to add/remove pin codes from Schlage locks and to trigger events based on the code used to unlock?

 
Yes to all those questions.

 

[vc1234]

We use the standard Sigma library in our own controllers. However, our systems do have the capability to set the command routes (the precise path from the controller out to the device). In many cases, this feature alone will fix communication problems*. However, in this case, the network density is simply too low. if you can't communicate adequately to the outlet in the garage, there's virtually no hope of controlling the lock next to it.  Lock communications are very picky and require clean command and return routes to work properly. I would recommend adding a few more receptacles or plug-in modules to boost network density. Then, I would recommend running a "full optimize" on the network to store return routes in the lock's built in module memory.
 
*Requires SmartStick+, Z-NET, Z-Wave.me UZB or Aeon Z-Stick GEN5.

 
The Leviton VRC0P (gen3) has that capability of manually setting a route, too.  However, the manual setting, by itself, does not guarantee that the assigned route will be taken by the packet, as I understand. So, functionally, it's no different from each node having a collection of neighbors discovered by the controller during the "healing" process and stored in the device memory.
 
Besides, in my observations, a device does not really try an alternative route if there is no ack from the controller but blindly re-transmits two times and then gives up.  It is always the controller that decides to try a new route if there is no ack from the device. 
 
E.g.:
S - source id
D- dest id
(L) - length
-79/-80/-42 RSSI
 
3105010943b5 - thermo specific payload
 
 
A thermostat to the controller                S D
2016-05-19T01:36:03.181737 homeid  4 13 (15)  3105010943b5  -79  65F temperature
No ack                                                    S D  
2016-05-19T01:36:03.248765 homeid  4 13 (15)  3105010943b5  -79 Try again
No ack
Give up.
 
A new attempt after the temperature changes:
2016-05-19T04:23:11.120455 homeid  4 13 (15)  3105010942b5  -80  66F temperature
2016-05-19T04:23:11.125532 homeid 13  4 (10)  8c  -42        Got an ack
Success
 
Perhaps, things improved in gen5, perhaps this sort of behavior(not trying an alternative route) is specific for my thermostats. Who knows ...

 

[pete_c]

Here DIY'd a Zee-2 on an RPi2 using  the Zee Wave Me + GPIO card.  I also added a PiFace RTC shim to the hardware mix.
 
The stuff is sitting in the attic today and powered via a POE connection. 
 
I am trying to melt it as temperatures do go to around 140 °F.  (not recommended).
 
I can also remote run the Homeseer 3 Z-Wave plugin and connect to the Homeseer 3 Pro mothership. (AKA similar to the ZNet device).
 
The range of the Z-Wave Plus GPIO card exceeds all of my first generation Z-Wave stuff (sticks and ZTroller).
 
You might not need more than one but two ZWave Plus devices would give you more coverage.
 
All said though I have set up the Leviton ZWave Serial PIM connected to my OmniPro 2 panel as a secondary thinking that I could utilize the status of the Z-Wave devices on both controllers and I cannot today.  I can though send out Z-Wave commands from either or device and the Z-Wave dot Me GPIO card sees the Leviton secondary controller.
 
Today I have multiple UPB serial PIMs and can do the above very easy.  I am also playing with Zigbee.  It works fine from the basement in a metal rack (or by conduit).  Leviton HAI ZIM and Securifi Almond / Almond Plus devices and I do not pay attention to it.

 

[wuench]

+1 for the aoetec repeaters.  They are small and unobtrusive.   The only zwave I have in my house are locks and I have about half a dozen repeaters to get the signal where I need it.  Most are hidden behind couches etc.   

 

[vc1234]

The range of the Z-Wave Plus GPIO card exceeds all of my first generation Z-Wave stuff (sticks and ZTroller).

That's because the Gen5 chip you have in your gadget can emit 3 times more energy than the older one.
 
"thinking that I could utilize the status of the Z-Wave devices on both controllers and I cannot today."
True, if the state transition is initiated by one of the controllers, you can otherwise if the device is capable of unsolicited state notification.

 

[rsw686]

ll said though I have set up the Leviton ZWave Serial PIM connected to my OmniPro 2 panel as a secondary thinking that I could utilize the status of the Z-Wave devices on both controllers and I cannot today.  I can though send out Z-Wave commands from either or device and the Z-Wave dot Me GPIO card sees the Leviton secondary controller.

 
I ran into this as well. I bought the Leviton ZWave PIM specifically so the controller could control the ZWave lock as well. The status reporting doesn't work for the locks or outlets on the OmniPro. If I did it again I might have gone ZigBee locks, but I was set on being able to change the PIN codes remotely. 

 

[vc1234]

I ran into this as well. I bought the Leviton ZWave PIM specifically so the controller could control the ZWave lock as well. The status reporting doesn't work for the locks or outlets on the OmniPro. If I did it again I might have gone ZigBee locks, but I was set on being able to change the PIN codes remotely. 

Interesting,  I was under impression that the omni module could receive that lock status because elk m1 can alright.
 
Re. outlets. As opposed to locks (or thermostats) that always notify about their status  change (well, if zwave RF hardware cooperates that is), not all switches/outlets are even capable of such notification.

 

[macromark]

Would this also work with the Zee S2 controller? Can a Zee S2 controller also use a Z-NET remote interface? If so I might switch over to HomeSeer as I could at least do more troubleshooting and the Z-NET would be great for my detached shop. Does HomeSeer have the ability to add/remove pin codes from Schlage locks and to trigger events based on the code used to unlock?

Yes, the Zee S2 includes the same 500 series Z-Wave module as the other options I mentioned so you would be able to specifically set the command route with it. The Zee also supports multiple Z-Wave networks, so you can install Z-NET(s) and manage them from the Zee. Lock user codes can be changed by the Zee. You can also create events to enable/disable codes at specific days/times, if you like.
 

The Leviton VRC0P (gen3) has that capability of manually setting a route, too.  However, the manual setting, by itself, does not guarantee that the assigned route will be taken by the packet, as I understand. So, functionally, it's no different from each node having a collection of neighbors discovered by the controller during the "healing" process and stored in the device memory.
 
Besides, in my observations, a device does not really try an alternative route if there is no ack from the controller but blindly re-transmits two times and then gives up.  It is always the controller that decides to try a new route if there is no ack from the device. 
 
E.g.:
S - source id
D- dest id
(L) - length
-79/-80/-42 RSSI
 
3105010943b5 - thermo specific payload
 
 
A thermostat to the controller                S D
2016-05-19T01:36:03.181737 homeid  4 13 (15)  3105010943b5  -79  65F temperature
No ack                                                    S D  
2016-05-19T01:36:03.248765 homeid  4 13 (15)  3105010943b5  -79 Try again
No ack
Give up.
 
A new attempt after the temperature changes:
2016-05-19T04:23:11.120455 homeid  4 13 (15)  3105010942b5  -80  66F temperature
2016-05-19T04:23:11.125532 homeid 13  4 (10)  8c  -42        Got an ack
Success
 
Perhaps, things improved in gen5, perhaps this sort of behavior(not trying an alternative route) is specific for my thermostats. Who knows ...

Not sure how the older VRC0P is able to set routes... maybe we're talking about something different?  Z-Wave Plus solves a LOT of these problems through the use of explorer frames. Unfortunately, there are no Z-Wave Plus door locks shipping just yet.
 
Our "full optimize" feature forces a network rediscovery AND also causes the end nodes to store up to 4 return routes. This is important because the return routes can't always be mirror images of the commands routes, since the broadcast range of the end node is usually smaller than that of the controller.
 

+1 for the aoetec repeaters.  They are small and unobtrusive.   The only zwave I have in my house are locks and I have about half a dozen repeaters to get the signal where I need it.  Most are hidden behind couches etc.   

They work but they're not Z-Wave Plus devices yet.  FYI

 

[wuench]

Not sure what constitutes zwave plus, but it doesn't appear to matter in my case.  Just to clarify I get access to all kwikset lock functionality with the aoetecs and the ISY.   Lock status, user programming, battery levels, etc.

 

[vc1234]

Yes, the Zee S2 includes the same 500 series Z-Wave module as the other options I mentioned so you would be able to specifically set the command route with it. The Zee also supports multiple Z-Wave networks, so you can install Z-NET(s) and manage them from the Zee. Lock user codes can be changed by the Zee. You can also create events to enable/disable codes at specific days/times, if you like.
 
Not sure how the older VRC0P is able to set routes... maybe we're talking about something different?  Z-Wave Plus solves a LOT of these problems through the use of explorer frames. Unfortunately, there are no Z-Wave Plus door locks shipping just yet.

 
The leviton VRUSB (?) installer USB "stick", vrc0p and openzwave even with the prev gen USB controllers could set routing for years. E.g. from the vrc0p application note:
"



[SIZE=10pt]Routes (RO): [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]To provide routing slaves with valid routes (when nodes can’t reach each other directly) “RO” command is used. Routing slave can have up to 5 nodes assign return routes. When adding new routes, it is recommended to delete all existing routes first. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]>RO2,0; delete all routes for the routing slave node 2. >RO2,10; setup up to 4 valid routes for node 2 to node 10. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"[/SIZE]
So, nothing new here.
 
In fact,  I've never seen a device in my network using a different route from the one having been used by the controller to reach the device in question. Admittedly, I did not experiment  with the static route feature at all after I built my probe. Having fixed the lock issues, I am afraid to touch the damn thing unnecessarily while it's more or less working. It's just too fragile. I do have a new gen5 aeon stick I may decide to play with. For that, I'd probably get a couple of zwave devices and see how well or badly they work.
 
How well explorer frames would work in practice remains to be seen.  Conceptually, what they do is no different from the old "healing".  The network is flooded with EF's by the controller that's attemtpting to rediscover a functional chain of re-trasmitters leading to a non-responsive device.  I consider such flooding problematic for obvious reasons.  I.e. when I look closer at my thermostat traces, I see that the situation with no ack from the controller coincides in time with a flood of beaming packets to a lock transmitted every 5ms for about a second. So, it is likely that the controller is jamming itself while using this brain-dead way to wake up the lock and misses the status notification (which my probe does receive).  Both zigbee and bluetooth ble are much smarter when handling battery operated devices.
 

They work but they're not Z-Wave Plus devices yet.  FYI

The aeotec siren I mentioned is a gen5 re-transmitter.

 

[vc1234]

Not sure what constitutes zwave plus, but it doesn't appear to matter in my case.  Just to clarify I get access to all kwikset lock functionality with the aoetecs and the ISY.   Lock status, user programming, battery levels, etc.

Zwave "plus" is a synonym/marketing speak for a gen5 zensys chip.  The old chip (gen3) was/is ZM3102 and the new one is ZM5202.  Actually, there are three or four series 500 chips, but they are substantially more or less the same.  The only reason to use a gen5 repeater with gen3 devices  would be its more powerful transmitter.