Should be is ideal, however I do not see why they would have to be as the slave is isolated pretty much anyway. I called GE today and they did confirm I can power the slave switch from another circuit. This is very good news as I think most of the switches have additinal feeds in the boxes. Will check when I get home.
Need help installing GE 3-way Z-Wave switch!
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Should be is ideal, however I do not see why they would have to be as the slave is isolated pretty much anyway. I called GE today and they did confirm I can power the slave switch from another circuit. This is very good news as I think most of the switches have additinal feeds in the boxes. Will check when I get home.
mikejrc
Active Member
Hello....
One thing we have to remember when it comes to electrical, do not be fooled by colors.
The NEC (National Electrical Code) has some stipulations when it comes to color coding. Neutral could be white for 120 volts and gray for over 208 volts. Hot could be black, red, blue for systems under 208 Volts an brown, orange and yellow for systems over 208 Volts.
The key element is to remember that electricity flows from your hot to your neutral regardless of the color, the internal copper wire doesn't know what color insulation it has.
In other words you analyze your wiring by understanding how that electricity is gonna flow to your components. There is an instance in the code that allows a white wire to be a "switch leg" so if someone looks at a box with a white and a black connected to a switch you will be scratching your head since a switch doesnt use a neutral, but what you didnt know is that the white wire is simply breaking the flow of electricity coming from the black wire and when you flip the switch the white one carries it to the light.
Now that being said, in order to help you I need to know a few things.
1)The picture you posted with the boxes and the switches, is that your current configuration right now or that is how you are expecting to wire it ?
2)I need to know the model of both master and auxiliary GE switches
3) the other diagram you showed was a diagram to have a 4 way arrangement. are you trying to do 4-way or 3 way?
A 4 way circuit is technically two (2) three (3) way switches and a four (4) way switch in between.
In the GE diagram that you posted im gonna explain how it works.
1) the ground (green) wire from each switch simply connects to your bare coper inside each box, thats for safety purposes.
2) the neutral wire coming from your feed or supply will connect to both your master switch white wire and the neutral that goes to the light. This neutral is the return path of your electricity flow when it goes across your load (light) back to the source (electrical panel)
3) the blue wire in your master switch will connect to your switch leg (regardless of color) that goes to the light. This wire carries the electricity to your light when any of the switches are pressed. In other words the master switch is the only one that controls when that electricity flows or not to the light.
4) every switch master or auxiliary has a black (hot) wire. this wire when connected to your feed or supply hot wire will simply power the internal circuitry of your switches, without it your switches cant do anything. the black wire doesnt need to go to any specific point or box in the circuit they are all in parallel.
So you simply need to connect each black wire from your switches to a wire that is connected the hot or supply wire.
5) the yellow wire is a control wire. when any of the switches are pressed that signal is sent to the others using this wire. The important thing here is that it doesnt matter if this wire goes directly between 2 switches or not. this wire could go from any switch box to another and from that one to the last switch box. Or they could all meet at any switch box.
In conclusion this 4 way GE diagram allows you control a light or lights from 3 locations without the use of travelers or dedicated wires from box to box.
the 2 auxiliary boxes only need 2 wires and a bare ground, the two wires could be black for hot and you could use the white as the yellow but for code compliance you will mark that white wire with yellow tape to identify it as being "not a neutral".
the problem is that you need to make sure that the white wire you are gonna mark as yellow is not connected to another neutral at the other end because it will be used for control.
the master box is gonna have a hot or feed connected to the hot terminal in your master switch. a switch leg coming from your light (it could be any color) that connects to your blue wire, a control wire (regardless of color) that connects to the yellow wire. And 2 neutral wires one will be the one coming from your light and the other the one that is going back to your electrical panel neutral bar, those you simply splice them together with a wire nut.
So let me know those 3 things i need to know so i can then make a diagram for your particular scenario.
I hope this helps
Good! I was not sure, therefore, being overly cautions. The additional feeds in the boxes may provide a solution to your problem. This likely means, however, that we will be abandoning the feed at the fixture, and that the circuit powering the master switch will need to have enough extra capacity to power the light fixture.
mikejrc
Active Member
Oberkc .... brother hold your horses. 
In his mock up i see a box with a feed but i dont see anything indicating that the feed goes to the fixture box.
Thats why i need to know where that feed is going to for sure. Also wires C D E and P Q R seem to go to master and slave switches but wires J K L and M N O are not clear to me if they are 1) other fixtures or even receptacles downstream being fed from the fixture or one set is connecting the fixture box with the supply or line box.
In his mock up i see a box with a feed but i dont see anything indicating that the feed goes to the fixture box.
Thats why i need to know where that feed is going to for sure. Also wires C D E and P Q R seem to go to master and slave switches but wires J K L and M N O are not clear to me if they are 1) other fixtures or even receptacles downstream being fed from the fixture or one set is connecting the fixture box with the supply or line box.
You post is both helpful and it over complicates things. I think I need to do a better job clarifiying my abilites.
- I am not an electrician
- I don't go by colors, but I know the flow of the circuits,have the ability and do test to find what wires I have.
- I wired my entire basement and have successfully used these GE Switches there. The problem I am having is with my upstairs wiring that was done by an electrician.
To answer your questions,
1.) That is the way things are wired that I am stuck with.
2.) Master Dimmer #45607 / Slave #45610
3.) I am doing a 3-way. The 2nd diagram is straight from the GE install manual. Just forgot about the second auxillary showing.
mikejrc
Active Member
im sorry man i was not trying to complicate things i was simply describing how things work for others to learn.
i will stick to your specific situation.
I need to know that line or feed is it going to your fixture box? in your mock up the way i saw it didnt tell me where it went. also your wires J K L and M N O where are they going or coming from, whats connected to them?
wires C D E and P Q R have what connected to them ? the original switches that now you are trying to replace with the GE ones?
my questions may sound stupid or redundant but the only way i can help you is to understand your electrician's wiring. Without that info i dont wanna tell you how to wire things and cause a hazardous situation.
i will stick to your specific situation.
I need to know that line or feed is it going to your fixture box? in your mock up the way i saw it didnt tell me where it went. also your wires J K L and M N O where are they going or coming from, whats connected to them?
wires C D E and P Q R have what connected to them ? the original switches that now you are trying to replace with the GE ones?
my questions may sound stupid or redundant but the only way i can help you is to understand your electrician's wiring. Without that info i dont wanna tell you how to wire things and cause a hazardous situation.
Oberkc .... brother hold your horses.
I agree that it is not absolutely clear (but I though pretty-darn clear), but this is an assumption that I made and stated in an earlier post. So far, there are no corrections given, so I am proceding on that assumption. Still, it does not hurt to double and triple check these assumptions. Horses are held.
No problem, I really appreciate your help. I hope everyone is clicking on the image of my mockup so it enlarges the picture for better viewing. I know my mock up wasn't perfect as I left out the other blue switch box(switchbox#2). But once you know which the feed wire is, then the rest should become clear as to how it should get wired.
Let me clarify what things are in the mockup.
-The wire marked Line that goes into the blue switchbox (switchbox#1) is the hot feed.
-The wire marked Switch#1 comes from switchbox#1 and goes to the black light fixture
-The wire marked Switch#2 (pretend there is another blue switchbox for the slave switch here) comes from switchbox#2 and goes to the light fixture.
-The master switch will connect to wires from the labeled wire Switch#1
-The slave switch will connect to wires from the labeled wire Switch#2
mikejrc
Active Member
perfect the problem with your mock up was the orientation of your picture
it made it look like feed was going to the light fixture box directly when in reality your feed goes to a switchbox first then to the fixture. I need to know the other wires JKL ,MNO are they the opposite ends of wires CDE, PQR or are wires JKL, MNO going to other fixtures?
is your 3 way controlling one light or group of lights ?
it made it look like feed was going to the light fixture box directly when in reality your feed goes to a switchbox first then to the fixture. I need to know the other wires JKL ,MNO are they the opposite ends of wires CDE, PQR or are wires JKL, MNO going to other fixtures?
is your 3 way controlling one light or group of lights ?
JKL are the opposite end of CDE
MNO are the opposite end of PQR
For simplicity sake, lets do 1 light for this mockup.
Thanks, I thought it would be the best way I could pose my example. Anyway, it is pretty much complete but not not all boxes are single gang. Basically I presented the model in the simplest form possible to see if it can be done. I guess we will see what panamanian has to say when he gets home. But the way I see it, the only way(without running wire) I can make it work is to feed power to the slave from another circuit. Time will tell.
OK. So the supply does NOT go to the fixture, as I had been assuming, and "Switch#1" goes to the blue box, which will house the master switch, but the actual box may be double gang or larger. There is no box shown for the slave switch, and it may be double-gang and may include power. The only wires in the black fixture box are "Switch#1" and "Switch#2". If you can confirm power at box 2, I can diagram how this would be connected without the addition of wires.
My diagram will be based on your house wire colors having standard meaning (white = neutral, black and red = hot, green = ground). As Panamanian suggested, this is best if you can confirm on site. Things can get messed up over time as people modify your electrical system, and your prior devices being X-10 makes this a higher probability than normal, in my estimation. I assume you can identify the proper breaker(s) and turn them off when doing electrical work. I assume you can independently identify presence of voltage or lack thereof. I assume you can confirm whites and bare wires are grounded. I assume you have a volt meter or non-contact voltage detector. I assume that the advice you received regarding the use of separate circuits powering each switch is accurate. I assume your mockup is an accurate depiction of your house wiring. If you have doubt about these assumptions, I suggest finding a friend who can verify for you. Better safe than electrocuted or having your house burn down.
Basically, supply A (assumed hot, ungrounded conductor) would be wired to master switch black. Supply B (assumed neutral, grounded conductor) would be wired to master switch white and to switch#1 white C. Supply bare (ground) would be wired to master switch green and to switch#1 bare. Master switch blue would go to Switch#1 black E and becomes the switched power for your fixture. Master switch yellow goes to red D (I would put yellow tape on this and at other red wire locations to match up with yellow switch wire color, but I am unsure of code requirement for signal wire colors, if any).
In the black box, wire L is now your switched power, and is connected to the fixture black wire. Wire J is your neutral, and is connected to your fixture white. Wire K is your signal to the slave and should be connected only to wire N. If your fixture has a green or bare ground wire, connect this to the bare copper wire of "switch#1. Cap off wire O and M, and label somehow as abandoned.
In the un-shown box 2, identify your power supply black wire. Connect black to slave wire T (which you confirmed is the switch supply wire per instructions), bare copper to slave green wire, and wire N (red, control signal wire from master) to slave wire S. Cap off wires P and R and mark abandoned.
I think it best to get a second set of eyes on this to confirm. Hopefully panamanian will have time to check this out. There are also code restrictions for box wire fill, but I must admit to paying less attention to this than I should (my rough guess is that you are OK, but much depends on the actual size of your boxes). Perhaps panamanian will offer any necessary advice in this area. I also suggest diagramming this out as necessary so that it makes sense to you.
Have fun! I hope you can avoid that which I have been unable to do: becoming addicted to home lighting automation. A lot of folks use Z-wave with great success.
You are getting the picture now and all your assumptions are correct. I have enough knowledge to get the job done correctly. That said, thanks for the diagram. The fact is the GE switches are severely limited by design. My goal was to see if this GE 3-way could be wired using the current wiring as most other z-wave brands can be done easily.
Basically unless panamanian can prove different, the only way to make it work is running hot from another circuit(same box as slave) to the slave. Point being, those that are buying these GE switches, check your wiring first. I know everyone is try to help but these GE switches are proving to be the exception to many rules.
mikejrc
Active Member
Ok sorry about the delay I was not home.
I just finished looking at the hole situation and made a diagram for it.
Here it goes, looking at my diagram......
You will need to run a 12/2 or 14/2 wire from either .....
-- the master switch box to the fixture box and use any of the 2 unused conductors going from the fixture box to the slave box and connect to the "white/red" wire
-- the master switch box to the slave box directly and connect to the "white/red" wire
-- if GE tech support says its ok....another circuit or device nearby with a constant hot not switched. this hot could go directly to your slave box or could be taken to the fixture box and use any of the 2 unused conductors going from the fixture box to the slave box and connect to the "white/red" wire
Im sorry that your current wire configuration is not fully operational.
I must say for the record, GE or any other manufacturer is not to blame, the blame should go to the electrician that didnt wire for a 3 way switch by using travelers from master to slave box. Bringing the hot the the fixture or any of the switch boxes doesnt make a difference or fix the problem.
technically you needed a 12/4 or 14/4 wire (blue,red.black,white) from the master box to fixture box and a 12/2 or 14/2 wire from slave box to fixture box.
I would call GE and ask them if feeding that slave switch from another location requires a hot on the same phase or different phase (I think it should not matter since its not feeding your fixture, the master switch supplies both hot and neutral)
I hope this helps any questions let me know
I just finished looking at the hole situation and made a diagram for it.
Here it goes, looking at my diagram......
You will need to run a 12/2 or 14/2 wire from either .....
-- the master switch box to the fixture box and use any of the 2 unused conductors going from the fixture box to the slave box and connect to the "white/red" wire
-- the master switch box to the slave box directly and connect to the "white/red" wire
-- if GE tech support says its ok....another circuit or device nearby with a constant hot not switched. this hot could go directly to your slave box or could be taken to the fixture box and use any of the 2 unused conductors going from the fixture box to the slave box and connect to the "white/red" wire
Im sorry that your current wire configuration is not fully operational.
I must say for the record, GE or any other manufacturer is not to blame, the blame should go to the electrician that didnt wire for a 3 way switch by using travelers from master to slave box. Bringing the hot the the fixture or any of the switch boxes doesnt make a difference or fix the problem.
technically you needed a 12/4 or 14/4 wire (blue,red.black,white) from the master box to fixture box and a 12/2 or 14/2 wire from slave box to fixture box.
I would call GE and ask them if feeding that slave switch from another location requires a hot on the same phase or different phase (I think it should not matter since its not feeding your fixture, the master switch supplies both hot and neutral)
I hope this helps any questions let me know
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