Insteon and Elk M1G - Reliability Issues
- Thread starter mtwalsh367
- Start date
markthomas
Active Member
That's disheartening. Even X-10 can sort this out. I'll have to try with UPB...Herdfan said:
The timing of the commands makes a lot of sense for the times when multiple commands are sent and only a few respond. I guess the ELK can run faster then the Insteon :blink:
Adding some more time between the commands defeats the speed that insteon advertises but I guess that is the least of the problems one could have to live with.
For the single commands that dont work I am still looking into that. I just tried a few and they worked. But later they may not. Very hard to troubleshoot such an inconsistant problem.
BTW just for S&its and Giggles I will call Smarthome and ask them if they think that ( need for a pause or delay) could be the problem (and see if they try to tell me I need to "Buy More"again ). They must own stock in the company.
Adding some more time between the commands defeats the speed that insteon advertises but I guess that is the least of the problems one could have to live with.
For the single commands that dont work I am still looking into that. I just tried a few and they worked. But later they may not. Very hard to troubleshoot such an inconsistant problem.
BTW just for S&its and Giggles I will call Smarthome and ask them if they think that ( need for a pause or delay) could be the problem (and see if they try to tell me I need to "Buy More"again ). They must own stock in the company.
mtwalsh367
Member
Wow, this is all great input and I see that I'm not alone with my Insteon issue. I suspected it was the powerlinc controller dropping the ball with multiple commands. I agree with the last post. Its really Smarthome's issue to beef up the powerlinc controller but in the short term implementing a longer delay within Elk should help. This could maybe be a parameter or on/off setting for a longer delay.
I am going to call Smarthome again now that I have a little more information.
Thanks everyone for the input.
I am going to call Smarthome again now that I have a little more information.
Thanks everyone for the input.
SmartLabsMike
Active Member
Spanky,
If I am reading this thread correctly, the issues would be eliminated if the Panel would send a single INSTEON group command instead of multiple individual on/offs.
If I am reading this thread correctly, the issues would be eliminated if the Panel would send a single INSTEON group command instead of multiple individual on/offs.
But what if we want a certian action to turn on or off multiple lights. Such as when I arm away and its daylight out I would want to turn off all interior lights but maybe not the ceiling fans or the bathroom fan (the bathroom fan will run for about an hour after I leave for work to get all of the moisture out).
Is the Insteon not capable of having more than one device given a command at a time?
Is the Insteon not capable of having more than one device given a command at a time?
Mike:
Perhaps in the next release of Insteon FW there will be support for multiple groups?
-Regards,
rod
I think this is where one runs into the limits of the current Elk Insteon implementation. I recall that the current Elk Insteon serial expander firmware only supports one group, Group 1. The recommendation in the M1XSP documentation is to link all devices to group 1 for an "all on" or "all off" function.
Perhaps in the next release of Insteon FW there will be support for multiple groups?
-Regards,
rod
All of this doesnt explain why a single command doesnt always work either. It can be from a linked switch or from the M1 and it does not always work. Granted I only have 8 devices going but that should be enough you would think.
Also why does the "on" command always work but not the "off" command?
If it was just commands coming from the M1 I would say it is on that end. But even an Insteon switch to an Insteon switch is a problem (unless the fact that I am polling from the M1 is causing the linked switches to miss the command, then yes, it would be the M1)
And yes I have the RF links in place.
Also why does the "on" command always work but not the "off" command?
If it was just commands coming from the M1 I would say it is on that end. But even an Insteon switch to an Insteon switch is a problem (unless the fact that I am polling from the M1 is causing the linked switches to miss the command, then yes, it would be the M1)
And yes I have the RF links in place.
Is it possible there is some sort of noise being generated from something running in the house? Perhaps it is of a sort that it only impacts the off commands?
I'm wondering if you shut off the breakers for circuits other than the two you were using and ran the test again what it would look like (and turn off/unplug any electronics).
That is assuming your issue is 'repeatable' enough to properly test once you've isolated everything.
However, I'm not sure how susceptible Insteon is to noise, so I'm not sure its worth the effort. If the above worked you could always add back equipment/circuits to try and isolate where the issue was occurring (a big pain however). Maybe a combination of the two issues?
Just a thought.
I'm wondering if you shut off the breakers for circuits other than the two you were using and ran the test again what it would look like (and turn off/unplug any electronics).
That is assuming your issue is 'repeatable' enough to properly test once you've isolated everything.
However, I'm not sure how susceptible Insteon is to noise, so I'm not sure its worth the effort. If the above worked you could always add back equipment/circuits to try and isolate where the issue was occurring (a big pain however). Maybe a combination of the two issues?
Just a thought.
Being a Compliance Engineer I decided to do some performace testing of this product. Nothing elaborate just some basics.
I made a very simple test fixture using a 3 gang electrical box (ICONS and a regular outlet), a line cord, a regluar desk lamp. I plugged the test fixture into the serial adaptor and I plugged the lamp into the outlet in the test fixture. The two Icons were linked and Icon "A" had the load and Icon "B" was the "slave" to "A". So everything was on one circuit and within abot 1 foot of each other worst case.
I manually turned ICON "A" on and off 100 times with no problems (none expected).
I manually turned ICON "B" on and off 100 times and there were 7 times that it did not turn the light on or off (I didnt keep track of how many of each....... oops).
I manually turned the light on and off 25 times with the ELK via the keypad as the control and it missed turning off twice. (Its a pain in the rear so I only did 25).
I then wrote a rule to toggle the light on and off every 10 seconds and let the ELK run for about 10 mins. It missed turning off a few times since the light stayed on to long more than a few times. I got distracted but it missed at least half a dozen times.
So I see a possible problem with the Insteon Technology. Granted this was not a very scientific method but it is a good indication that more official testing should be done probably by Smarthome to see of they can find the root cause. Obviously the test fixture was not "perfect" conditions but it is about the best I could do for a quick trial run in my spare time.
As a Compliance Engineer I have to admit I like the design of the product from a manual use perspective (it has a nice feel as well). I also think that with some minor refinement (if necessary as I am not swearing that there is definitely a problem) this will be a fantastic product.
One very minor construction item I noted was that the physical size of switch does not consistently fit with a Decora coverplate. There are a few of the switches that do not quite fit in the opening of the coverplate. I used the same plate and went between switches and most fit but not all (I have 8 installed and another 6 waiting). So I had to trim the interior cutout of a coverplate for a few switches. No biggie but slighty annoying.
Overall with refinements I would give it an "A" in my unofficial personel opinion. They got the look, the features, and the pricepoint right. If there are bugs to be worked out that is expected I guess with a new product. I wuold love to see a higher rated relay switch (1000W) like the dimmer for use with christmas lights etc. Also some RF products that are supposedly coming soon would be great!
I made a very simple test fixture using a 3 gang electrical box (ICONS and a regular outlet), a line cord, a regluar desk lamp. I plugged the test fixture into the serial adaptor and I plugged the lamp into the outlet in the test fixture. The two Icons were linked and Icon "A" had the load and Icon "B" was the "slave" to "A". So everything was on one circuit and within abot 1 foot of each other worst case.
I manually turned ICON "A" on and off 100 times with no problems (none expected).
I manually turned ICON "B" on and off 100 times and there were 7 times that it did not turn the light on or off (I didnt keep track of how many of each....... oops).
I manually turned the light on and off 25 times with the ELK via the keypad as the control and it missed turning off twice. (Its a pain in the rear so I only did 25).
I then wrote a rule to toggle the light on and off every 10 seconds and let the ELK run for about 10 mins. It missed turning off a few times since the light stayed on to long more than a few times. I got distracted but it missed at least half a dozen times.
So I see a possible problem with the Insteon Technology. Granted this was not a very scientific method but it is a good indication that more official testing should be done probably by Smarthome to see of they can find the root cause. Obviously the test fixture was not "perfect" conditions but it is about the best I could do for a quick trial run in my spare time.
As a Compliance Engineer I have to admit I like the design of the product from a manual use perspective (it has a nice feel as well). I also think that with some minor refinement (if necessary as I am not swearing that there is definitely a problem) this will be a fantastic product.
One very minor construction item I noted was that the physical size of switch does not consistently fit with a Decora coverplate. There are a few of the switches that do not quite fit in the opening of the coverplate. I used the same plate and went between switches and most fit but not all (I have 8 installed and another 6 waiting). So I had to trim the interior cutout of a coverplate for a few switches. No biggie but slighty annoying.
Overall with refinements I would give it an "A" in my unofficial personel opinion. They got the look, the features, and the pricepoint right. If there are bugs to be worked out that is expected I guess with a new product. I wuold love to see a higher rated relay switch (1000W) like the dimmer for use with christmas lights etc. Also some RF products that are supposedly coming soon would be great!
I will try putting a repeated command in one of my rules and see if it increases reliability. Theoretically it should make it about 100%.
I have been experimenting and I think I am getting the setup to be reliable enough that I wont care about a few lost commands.
Even with just another linked switch its not 100% so the problem has nothing to do with the M1 but the M1 or other automation system can compensate by sending repeated commands.
Overall I think that the Insteon is a great deal if I can get to about 98% relaibility.
I am testing someone elses (cant say whose) new residential fire/burg panel and it supports X-10 not insteon. It seems to be a pain in the rear to setup automation compared to the M1. I wouldnt bother with automation if I had that panel in my house.
It makes me appreciate buying the M1
I have been experimenting and I think I am getting the setup to be reliable enough that I wont care about a few lost commands.
Even with just another linked switch its not 100% so the problem has nothing to do with the M1 but the M1 or other automation system can compensate by sending repeated commands.
Overall I think that the Insteon is a great deal if I can get to about 98% relaibility.
I am testing someone elses (cant say whose) new residential fire/burg panel and it supports X-10 not insteon. It seems to be a pain in the rear to setup automation compared to the M1. I wouldnt bother with automation if I had that panel in my house.
It makes me appreciate buying the M1
Not quite had that problem, but I have noticed that the KPL's ride slightly higher than the dimmers. So some jiggling has to take place.Digger said:
Also, I have removed all stock screws and use better ones from a pack I bought at HD. It may be the brand of j-boxes used in my house, but the stock screws don't seem to have much bite into the box.
