Get rid of Insteon and switch to Zwave ? Need help

[MiB]

Adding a bigger box was worth it in all locations as i like having 4 full / flexible scene commands in all locations without the load dependancy... Ya cost decreas might have been nice, but i'm out 3K in this solution anyway, what's a few more bucks

Not sure I follow your logic here... It is somehow better to gouge out space in your wall to add a gang to you electrical box than it would be for Leviton to make a keypad that controls a local load? You do understand that they could build one with more than 4 buttons on it if that is a big concern.

I have to agree fully with you with here. I really don't understand what Leviton was thinking when they released the 4 button controllers with no local load control. While cutting out the drywall and adding another box is a possible work around, it's certainly not something I want to be doing when I'd like to add about 10 of them around the house just for starters.

Come to think of it our kitchen counter backsplash is tiled with terazzo marble tiles that has a 3 gang box that controls the undercounter LV lights, the LV pot above the sink and the LV halogens inside our glass cabinets. That's where my wife wants the scene control for cooking, dining etc. I'd have to not only cut out drywall but cut marble installed marble tile just to get another gang box in there. Not gonna happen !

 

[MikeB]

My conversation with SH CS last week or so was that I would have to buy a replacement PLM since they were not considering it a bug fix to prevent the lockups but an "enhancement".

I'm sure they will swap your PLM for you. You were talking to a guy in customer service who probably didn't even know that a beta PLM existed.

You were looking for a reason to complain. You knew of the PLM lockup issues, you knew they were beta testing a fix, but you ordered one from SmartHome anyway - and before you even received it you hammered them about getting it replaced, to someone who probably didn't even know what you were talking about.

Come on...

 

[MiB]

My conversation with SH CS last week or so was that I would have to buy a replacement PLM since they were not considering it a bug fix to prevent the lockups but an "enhancement". Kind of like your car stalling. You can always turn the key again to start it up (in traffic) but if you want one that doesnt stall you have to buy a new improved version. Mine is only 8 days old and it locked up about 3 times. Its a PIA when it happens. I might just return the ISY and the PLM and buy a new one from Universal Devices direct since they stand behind the products better.

That's exactly the kind of company I DO NOT want to be dealing with. If that's the kind of reply they give their customers when we don't want to pay good money for flawed beta grade products, they can take my entire order back under the 30 days satisfaction terms immediately.

I have little patience for BS like this and it's the main reason why I' considering returning the whole order and switching to Zwave.
I might just have to wait a while for combined scene & local load control. But I suppose that's a small price for not getting stuck with an expensive and poor HA deployment of a flawed and defective product I'd have to throw away eventually if I stick with Insteon. At least that's how it looks like this is going to play out from my point of view at the moment.

 

[upstatemike]

If you are uncomfortable then return it now while you still can. Even if you decide you want to go the same route down the road, it will be easier to just return the bad stuff now and then re-order when the new rev is available than it would be to argue over a warranty replacement at some point in the future.

 

[MiB]

If you are uncomfortable then return it now while you still can. Even if you decide you want to go the same route down the road, it will be easier to just return the bad stuff now and then re-order when the new rev is available than it would be to argue over a warranty replacement at some point in the future.

Mike, thanks for your advice.
I noticed from your signature that you've got an insteon setup. How's the hardware reliability been for you ?

 

[Herdfan]

I don't get it.
The Vizia 4 button scene/zone controllers need to be installed in a wall box, but don't seem to control a local load.
How many people have extra wall boxes that aren't being used to control local loads ?

As a general rule I put the keypads in place of one leg of a multiway and used the top button to control the load. In one case, I had to place a dimmer in the attic to be able to use the j-box for a keypad.

 

[MikeB]

If you are uncomfortable then return it now while you still can.

Absolutely. If you are that disgruntled, then return it otherwise you'll be second-guessing yourself from here on out.

Even better - order a few devices from each technology, and compare for yourself. Worse comes to worse, you eBay what you don't use and lose a few bucks - but at least you'll have made an informed decision.

Take what you read from anyone (including me) with a grain of salt. I think most have had a good experience with Insteon, but there are a few people who absolutely hate it for a variety of reasons. The haters are usually the most vocal. I'm sure if you asked the guy who couldn't get his Z-Wave working because of a neighbor's RF cameras how he liked it, he'd give you a negative review too.

Good luck with whatever you go with!

 

[Herdfan]

I really don't understand what Leviton was thinking when they released the 4 button controllers with no local load control.

Lutron is no different with their RadioRA or Homeworks Wireless. And IIRC, the RF product from Centralite does not have load controlling keypads either.

 

[MiB]

I don't get it.
The Vizia 4 button scene/zone controllers need to be installed in a wall box, but don't seem to control a local load.
How many people have extra wall boxes that aren't being used to control local loads ?

As a general rule I put the keypads in place of one leg of a multiway and used the top button to control the load. In one case, I had to place a dimmer in the attic to be able to use the j-box for a keypad.

Wouldn't this limit you to using/installing only Vizia 4 button 'zone' controller as opposed to their scene controller ?
At least with my limi ted understanding of the difference between the 2 types, you'd only be able to properly remotely control a single 3 way circuit with their zone controller.

 

[MiB]

If you are uncomfortable then return it now while you still can.

Absolutely. If you are that disgruntled, then return it otherwise you'll be second-guessing yourself from here on out.

Even better - order a few devices from each technology, and compare for yourself. Worse comes to worse, you eBay what you don't use and lose a few bucks - but at least you'll have made an informed decision.

Take what you read from anyone (including me) with a grain of salt. I think most have had a good experience with Insteon, but there are a few people who absolutely hate it for a variety of reasons. The haters are usually the most vocal. I'm sure if you asked the guy who couldn't get his Z-Wave working because of a neighbor's RF cameras how he liked it, he'd give you a negative review too.

Good luck with whatever you go with!

Mike I hear you on treating forum opinions with a grain of salt. For the record I'm neither disgruntled nor hate any of the technologies. In fact I don't hate much besides brussel sprouts

I'm about as unbiased as they come regarding any HA products.
I even have great things to say about X10, considering it's low cost and convenient things like stick-a-swtiches it's served me quite well for the last couple of years. It was time to move up to something better that I could reliably deploy throughout the house.

If anything I'm disappointed in Insteon reliability so far.
Maybe my expectations were too high in thinking that it was a mature reliable product.

 

[upstatemike]

If you are uncomfortable then return it now while you still can. Even if you decide you want to go the same route down the road, it will be easier to just return the bad stuff now and then re-order when the new rev is available than it would be to argue over a warranty replacement at some point in the future.

Mike, thanks for your advice.
I noticed from your signature that you've got an insteon setup. How's the hardware reliability been for you ?

Certainly not as bad as some folks have experienced but I have had a few issues.

Out of 100 or so switches I have had about 10 failures due to bad micro-switches. Some of the failures worked for almost 2 years before failing. All were replaced under warranty.

Out of 13 keypads I have had to replace all of them under warranty because of a firmware bug that made them flicker. This has been resolved in current production units.

I have about 175 Insteon devices so far and just on sheer scale, no other technology was affordable enough for me to consider so I have to tolerate some issues I guess. Still, with new keypads just released, and new PLMs coming soon, it seems that if you are just starting out it would be worthwhile to wait a few weeks to ensure you get the latest (bug free?) stuff. If the new stuff doesn't resolve the known issues you will certainly read about it here so why stress about it? Send your stuff back and let things play out a little bit, then decide what to do next.

 

[shenandoah75]

Adding a bigger box was worth it in all locations as i like having 4 full / flexible scene commands in all locations without the load dependancy... Ya cost decreas might have been nice, but i'm out 3K in this solution anyway, what's a few more bucks

Not sure I follow your logic here... It is somehow better to gouge out space in your wall to add a gang to you electrical box than it would be for Leviton to make a keypad that controls a local load? You do understand that they could build one with more than 4 buttons on it if that is a big concern.

With herdfan's solution (using button1 as his local dedicated control of a 3-way load), he's left with 3 scenes. That's fine for him and i guess for you and MiB as well and thats cool. But I use all four scenes in each location and don't want to be limited to three. To me MiB is asking for a 3 scene + 1 zone controller with an imbedded dimmer assigned to what equates to the single zone button. That to me is not logical given that i can by the extra gang box for a couple of bucks. Ya leviton could add more buttons, but if you cram any more buttons into the 4 + 1 level rocker already in the devices and it will become harder to use in my opinion... the buttons are already small enough for my fingers. Coule Leviton do it, sure, but for that reason i doubt they would.

I am indeed saying that if Leviton offered what you guys are asking for and what they produce today, i would still buy the current offering for the above reasoning. I'm also saying if you like Zwave, going with another technology just to stick it to Leviton for not offering what you think is a good combination on an otherwise solid platform, or because you're willing to spend time swapping out switches, but not adding a j-box may not be in your best interest either. Granted the marble (or granite for others) issue is a little bigger than the drywall cutting. however, a grinder and a dremel would seem to me to work well on it 10 scene controllers alone would seem to indicate you are willing to put a substantial investment in your lighting part of your automation. Sorry, but swapping out the jboxes doesn't seem that high a premium if you're not happy with the insteon technology, but i guess that's personal preference

Regardless, I think H/A requires compromise especially given the limited market. I'm still wrestling with certain areas esp software...

Enjoy whatever you decide...

 

[MikeB]

In fact I don't hate much besides brussel sprouts

Have you tried lima beans???

If anything I'm disappointed in Insteon reliability so far.

Well, bad units out of the box are bad. No doubt about it. QC should catch those.

Maybe my expectations were too high in thinking that it was a mature reliable product.

With this type of technology, you definitely have to do your research first. If I was sold on HomeSeer and was looking at lighting control, a look at their boards would tell you Insteon is not a good match - at least not right now. If you were looking at the ISY-26, or maybe CQC, or MainLobby (haven't heard of PLM lockup issues with them either), I think you would be OK.

You can say the same maturity issues about any of these technologies. Expect your Z-Wave remote to control your Z-Wave thermostat? Guess again. You noticed the lack of load control on the scene/zone controllers. The fact that Z-Wave depends on an unregulated RF frequency would scare me. UPB lacks RF. Insteon lacks a good IR interface (that hole will be filled in a few weeks with the ISY-99.9).

 

[twilo123]

i agree with controlling the local load on the leviton's. i happened to get lucky and had a switch controlling an outlet so i just hotwired the outlet and used the leviton in place of the switch.

 

[MikeB]

Customer Service SHOULD know what they are talking about I fully agree with that.

They are probably not informed about beta/unreleased products.

Excuse me get your facts straight first. I "CALLED" them "AFTER" it locked up for the "SECOND" time (and it has locked up once more since then).

On 11/19 you posted to the UDI forums saying you had ordered an ISY-26 and it should get there in "a week or so".

About an hour later you posted up saying you had contacted SmartHome customer service and they told you it was not "not flashable" and you would have to "buy a new one"

Here's a quote from you:

CS told me that you have to buy a new one when I asked in Chat a few hours ago. I havent even received it yet I know its outdated and prone to lockups at times.

I'm not saying you didn't call them AFTER that, what I said was that you were looking for something to complain about when you contacted them and asked those questions.