Elk water sensor: how to add to zone?

[killervette]

I bought one of these water sensors: http://www.smarthome.com/7115X/Extra-Water...toff-Kit/p.aspx

How do I add this to a zone to detect if there is water? I know its just 2 wires to connect, but do i need a resistor? Also, in ElkRP, how do i configure that zone?

thanks

 

[Digger]

I bought one of these water sensors: http://www.smarthome.com/7115X/Extra-Water...toff-Kit/p.aspx

How do I add this to a zone to detect if there is water? I know its just 2 wires to connect, but do i need a resistor? Also, in ElkRP, how do i configure that zone?

thanks

I dont use that type but I believe you just configure it as a normally open zone with an EOL. You can use a type "Water Zone" or a type "Non Alarm". If you want it to report then use the water zone. If you dont want it to report (just run rules like shut off the water and beep keyads etc) use the non alarm zone type 16 etc.

 

[Lagerhead]

The sensor is meant to be used with the indicated water shut-off valve kit. It may not be a good match for direct connection to the M1 (or any similar system).

What is the resistance of the sensor, dry vs. wet?

 

[icellama21]

I'd go with something like this instead:

http://www.automatedoutlet.com/Home/Water-Sensors/GRI-2600
http://www.grisk.com/specialty/pdf/2600%20Instructions.pdf

Designed for a security circuit.

 

[killervette]

I bought one of these water sensors: http://www.smarthome.com/7115X/Extra-Water...toff-Kit/p.aspx

How do I add this to a zone to detect if there is water? I know its just 2 wires to connect, but do i need a resistor? Also, in ElkRP, how do i configure that zone?

thanks

can you please explain EOL? i am new to this stuff.

 

[Digger]

I personally use the GRI sensors myself. You can find them for slightly less than you paid SH for the one you bought.

The EOL is the End Of Line device. In the case of the ELK it is the 2200 ohm resistor.

 

[Lagerhead]

can you please explain EOL? i am new to this stuff.

There are many, many threads on CT that cover the purpose, use and misuse of EOL resistors. Here is one:
http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...hl=EOL+resistor

But first things first for your application -- EOL supervision for all but life-safety zones is entirely optional.

So do not complicate your world worrying about EOL until you know whether the sensor itself is usable with the M1. Either from someone who has already done it, or make the determination yourself through experimentation, measurement, etc.

 

[Digger]

can you please explain EOL? i am new to this stuff.

There are many, many threads on CT that cover the purpose, use and misuse of EOL resistors. Here is one:
http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...hl=EOL+resistor

But first things first for your application -- EOL supervision for all but life-safety zones is entirely optional.

So do not complicate your world worrying about EOL until you know whether the sensor itself is usable with the M1. Either from someone who has already done it, or make the determination yourself through experimentation, measurement, etc.

If you are going to recommend not using EOL devices on a Normally Open zone shouldnt you explain that if there is a break in the wiring the user will never know unless they test the zone often? For a water zone I would use the EOL since I doubt the user will want to test that often based on its location etc.

My OPINION is to use a EOL Resistor for this application based on the above. You would not want to come home and find a flood because the wiring got damaged when someone moved the washer or dryer etc to clean.

 

[killervette]

can you please explain EOL? i am new to this stuff.

There are many, many threads on CT that cover the purpose, use and misuse of EOL resistors. Here is one:
http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...hl=EOL+resistor

But first things first for your application -- EOL supervision for all but life-safety zones is entirely optional.

So do not complicate your world worrying about EOL until you know whether the sensor itself is usable with the M1. Either from someone who has already done it, or make the determination yourself through experimentation, measurement, etc.

If you are going to recommend not using EOL devices on a Normally Open zone shouldnt you explain that if there is a break in the wiring the user will never know unless they test the zone often? For a water zone I would use the EOL since I doubt the user will want to test that often based on its location etc.

My OPINION is to use a EOL Resistor for this application based on the above. You would not want to come home and find a flood because the wiring got damaged when someone moved the washer or dryer etc to clean.

So do i put the resister in the same connection on the elk zone or do I put it at the water sensor? sorry i dont know much about the resistor

 

[Digger]

can you please explain EOL? i am new to this stuff.

There are many, many threads on CT that cover the purpose, use and misuse of EOL resistors. Here is one:
http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...hl=EOL+resistor

But first things first for your application -- EOL supervision for all but life-safety zones is entirely optional.

So do not complicate your world worrying about EOL until you know whether the sensor itself is usable with the M1. Either from someone who has already done it, or make the determination yourself through experimentation, measurement, etc.

If you are going to recommend not using EOL devices on a Normally Open zone shouldnt you explain that if there is a break in the wiring the user will never know unless they test the zone often? For a water zone I would use the EOL since I doubt the user will want to test that often based on its location etc.

My OPINION is to use a EOL Resistor for this application based on the above. You would not want to come home and find a flood because the wiring got damaged when someone moved the washer or dryer etc to clean.

So do i put the resister in the same connection on the elk zone or do I put it at the water sensor? sorry i dont know much about the resistor

Put it at the sensor and if there is a break in the wiring to the sensor it will cause a trouble condition (if you put it at the panel you will never know the wiring is damaged). I have to go back outside and do some work but I will be in chat later tonight if you have questions. There are plenty of guys there that can help you though most times of the day.

 

[Ira]

Here is what GRI recommends for a failsafe system.

From the above link...

The 2600 Closed Loop Sensors use an external power source to energize a built-in relay contact so battery power is not recommended. Used in a closed loop configuration, an alarm condition will occur when moisture is detected, or if powerto the sensor is lost, and if the sensor should fail. The relay output can be wired directly to any alarm panel or can be used to actuate an external device, i.e. transmitter, annunciator, etc.

 

[Digger]

Here is what GRI recommends for a failsafe system.

From the above link...

The 2600 Closed Loop Sensors use an external power source to energize a built-in relay contact so battery power is not recommended. Used in a closed loop configuration, an alarm condition will occur when moisture is detected, or if powerto the sensor is lost, and if the sensor should fail. The relay output can be wired directly to any alarm panel or can be used to actuate an external device, i.e. transmitter, annunciator, etc.

That is only if the device is closed loop. The device the OP has is Normally Open. TIn a Normally Open configuration you want the EOL for supervision (if you get the NC you are correct it is not necessary). The GRI-2800 water are two wire devices that are less expensive and more popular with Pro's since they only need 2 wires.

 

[Lagerhead]

If you are going to recommend not using EOL devices on a Normally Open zone shouldnt you explain that if there is a break in the wiring the user will never know unless they test the zone often? For a water zone I would use the EOL since I doubt the user will want to test that often based on its location etc.

No, I am not recommending no supervision. I am recommending omitting the EOL at first until it is confirmed that the sensor will work with the zone.

The OP has two issues, one is learning how to apply EOL supervision and the other is confirming that the sensor will work on a zone. It is obviously necessary to establish as the first step that the sensor works. This type of sensor is just a few square inches of exposed metal that does not necessarily go closed when immersed, it only drops down to a few kilohms -- maybe not even that low, and maybe/probably not enough to trigger the zone.

Anyway I don't use this type, I have the GRS sensors, both powered and unpowered. With the powered sensors I do use EOL resistors, properly located out at the sensors, at "end of line".

 

[Steve]

Yes, an EOL is much more important in a NO circuit than a NC. It's also important to note that wiring an EOL is different in each. In a NC circuit the EOL should be in series and in a NO circuit the EOL should be in parallel. Here is a good picture illustrating it.

 

[Digger]

If you are going to recommend not using EOL devices on a Normally Open zone shouldnt you explain that if there is a break in the wiring the user will never know unless they test the zone often? For a water zone I would use the EOL since I doubt the user will want to test that often based on its location etc.

No, I am not recommending no supervision. I am recommending omitting the EOL at first until it is confirmed that the sensor will work with the zone.

The OP has two issues, one is learning how to apply EOL supervision and the other is confirming that the sensor will work on a zone. It is obviously necessary to establish as the first step that the sensor works. This type of sensor is just a few square inches of exposed metal that does not necessarily go closed when immersed, it only drops down to a few kilohms -- maybe not even that low, and maybe/probably not enough to trigger the zone.

Anyway I don't use this type, I have the GRS sensors, both powered and unpowered. With the powered sensors I do use EOL resistors, properly located out at the sensors, at "end of line".

But having the EOL Resistor there may allow the OP to use the sensor since the parallel resistance of the EOL will increase the potential for the zone to trip. EOL is 2200 ohms. Device is 2000 ohms when wet (a guess). Total is about 1100 ohms and change between the two when the sensor is wet. Without the EOL it will look like 2000 ohms and may not work.

All numbers above are approximate and not measured other than the 2200 ohm EOL value.

Killervette I would try using the sensor with the EOL device in parallel at the sensor to see if it trips the zone.

My personnel opinion is the SH sensor is unreliable for this application but it is only my opinion.