Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[hult]

I installed an EDT i-line system in my new house by myself 2 years ago. The switches are very responsive and I have had no problems at all. I am controlling every load in the house (64) with the switches. The i-line software is a little hard to grasp initially, but if you are controlling with an ELK, there is no need to use the i-line software.

They do not have lamp modules, so for planning purposes, if you want a lamp controlled by the system, make sure you have the lamp outlet controlled via a switch.

Pete

What is your (NEC) code-compliant solution for a _dimmed_ lamp using EDT i-line?

... Marc

The way we worked with the code is that the CAT5 is there to control a device (the i-line switch). That way, it was allowed in the box with the HV wiring. We had to show that the insulation rating was at least 300V and we went to the manufacturer of the CAT5 wire to get the answer for the inspector.

I didn't use enough words to phrase my question clearly. By "lamp outlet", I assume that you mean a duplex outlet in which at least one of the outlets is controlled by the EDT i-line device. If this device is an on-off switch, that does not in itself present a code issue.

If the device is a dimmer, and it supplies 'dimmed' power to a standard Edison AC power outlet (eg NEMA 5-15) , it is my understanding that it would be a violation of the NEC 110-3(B)+ 404.14(E) (maybe others) and is certainly bad practice IMO. ( Watch that vacuum cleaner smoke ...)

Lutron makes an specialized connector set (eg NTR-15-HFDU outlet and RP-FDU-10 plug ) that has UL listing for dimming, but ABIK it is only UL- listed for use with Lutron dimmers -- of course ;-) www.lutron.com/pdfspecs/novatb.pdf

Because floor and table lamps are often used for 'mood lighting', being able to dim them can be important. With PLC and RF devices, the dimmer can be a wall-wart type so X-10, INSTEON, Zwave etc can be readily used to dim free-standing lamps in a code-compliant way. One could also embed inline ( not i-line ) dimmers using these protocols inside the lamps themselves to avoid unsightly wall acne.

With hardwired lighting, it is more of a 'challenge'. And I wondered if you or anyone else had a code-compliant solution.

TIA ... Marc

 

[ctay]

With hardwired lighting, it is more of a 'challenge'. And I wondered if you or anyone else had a code-compliant solution.

Centralite can control UPB devices. I'll use one of these to control my lamps. Not as pretty as the rest of my Litejet stuff but this will end up going behind furniture anyway so what is the difference...

Chris

 

[TonyStewart]

The polling loop for the ALC switch is normally 4 volts. It only uses two wires so the other 6 in the cat5 are spares.

So does this mean that if I have a quad gang box, with 4 ALC switches in it, I would only need to run 1 Cat5 cable to that box?

Yes! But there are two options in your example.

1. Tie all the polling loops together, set each dip switch for the addressing, then use one pair of the 4 pair in the cat 5.
2. Or use all 4 - one for each switch.

Option two is best if you desire to use the Enhanced branch hubs (optional) and want each switch in the 4 gang to have a dip switch of it's own.

 

[Sacedog]

So, I had another meeting with our builder last night, and I talked with him about lighting, and HV & LV in the same box. He siad that the planning dept in the city that I am building in is very strict about there being no LV wiring in ANY HV box; even if it is appropriately rated LV wiring (a fine example of that catch-all in the NEC, giving local inspectors god-like power).

I guess at this point, I am going to purchase an OnQ switch, and take it into the planning dept, along with a cut sheet, and installation instructions, and see what they tell me. If they say absolutely not, I'll be looking at either powerline stuff or a hime-run hardwired system.

I forgot to ask him what he thought of running the LV, and just attaching it to the top of the box, but not connecting until after final. The builder would probably be OK with this, but I guess I need to find out for sure. To the inspector, we could simply say "Yeah, that is for a future audio system that the home owner is planning on installing in a seperate box above the light switch. We just attached to the box, so it wouldn't get lost in the wall."

Anyway, lots of good discussion on this topic. Thanks again for all of the input!

 

[hult]

With hardwired lighting, it is more of a 'challenge'. And I wondered if you or anyone else had a code-compliant solution.

Centralite can control UPB devices. I'll use one of these to control my lamps. Not as pretty as the rest of my Litejet stuff but this will end up going behind furniture anyway so what is the difference...

Chris

Yes ... I use a different PLC system (INSTEON) to supplement hard-wired lighting in part for the same reason. But these aren't entirely hard-wired solutions ;-)

I didn't know about the Centralite--> UPB connection. Jimmy Busby once asked me whether I had developed a hardware Centralite --> DMX-512 converter (I hadn't). It is good to know that Centralite continues to pursue Elegant (to stretch a pun) protocol extensions and interconnections.

... Marc

 

[TonyStewart]

So, I had another meeting with our builder last night, and I talked with him about lighting, and HV & LV in the same box. He siad that the planning dept in the city that I am building in is very strict about there being no LV wiring in ANY HV box; even if it is appropriately rated LV wiring (a fine example of that catch-all in the NEC, giving local inspectors god-like power).

I guess at this point, I am going to purchase an OnQ switch, and take it into the planning dept, along with a cut sheet, and installation instructions, and see what they tell me. If they say absolutely not, I'll be looking at either powerline stuff or a hime-run hardwired system.

I forgot to ask him what he thought of running the LV, and just attaching it to the top of the box, but not connecting until after final. The builder would probably be OK with this, but I guess I need to find out for sure. To the inspector, we could simply say "Yeah, that is for a future audio system that the home owner is planning on installing in a seperate box above the light switch. We just attached to the box, so it wouldn't get lost in the wall."

Anyway, lots of good discussion on this topic. Thanks again for all of the input!

Show up at his office early in the morning with pastries. Enough for everyone.

 

[Herdfan]

I forgot to ask him what he thought of running the LV, and just attaching it to the top of the box, but not connecting until after final.

Or you could pretend you are in Chicago and have the builder put all wiring in conduit so you could add the LV wire after final.

 

[Sacedog]

Well, I just got back from the plan and permitting office for my city, and have positive news. They said that they follow the NEC, and will allow LV and HV in the same box, as long as the LV has the proper insulation per code. I also had them look at the cut sheet for the OnQ lighting switches, so that they could see how they recommend wiring it, and they said that it looked good as well. This was verified by one of the actual inspectors as he walked by, and became interested in our conversation.

So this means that the OnQ or iLine systems would both work for my project...it looks like I will be calculating even more Cat5 cable runs now (I already have almost 30k' of cabling!!)

Thanks again for all of the great info and wisdom!

 

[Sacedog]

I think I already know that answer to my question, but I thought I would post it anyway. After finding out that I can install a Cat5 hardwired lighting system, I decided to price it out. I have only priced out OnQ, since iLine is purchased from dealers (although based on previous posts, it seems to be priced close to the OnQ system).

For a 36 load system not including Aux switches or Scene switches on either system (I rounded, and added a bit for shipping/tax), I have calculated the cost below. Both systems would require the M1 serial port, so I did not calculate that into the price.

• UPB - $2,100
  • 12 Dimming Switches
  • 24 Non-Dimming Switches
  • UPB PIM
• OnQ ALC - $3,750
  • 12 Dimming Switches
  • 24 Non-Dimming Switches
  • Lighting Controller
  • Lighting Distribution Module
  • 5 Branch Hubs
  • Lighting Interface to M1

So my question is, based on the price, am I better off going with a hardwired Cat5 lighting solution over UPB? What would you do?

 

[TonyStewart]

I think I already know that answer to my question, but I thought I would post it anyway. After finding out that I can install a Cat5 hardwired lighting system, I decided to price it out. I have only priced out OnQ, since iLine is purchased from dealers (although based on previous posts, it seems to be priced close to the OnQ system).

For a 36 load system not including Aux switches or Scene switches on either system (I rounded, and added a bit for shipping/tax), I have calculated the cost below. Both systems would require the M1 serial port, so I did not calculate that into the price.

• UPB - $2,100
  • 12 Dimming Switches
  • 24 Non-Dimming Switches
  • UPB PIM
• OnQ ALC - $3,750
  • 12 Dimming Switches
  • 24 Non-Dimming Switches
  • Lighting Controller
  • Lighting Distribution Module
  • 5 Branch Hubs
  • Lighting Interface to M1

So my question is, based on the price, am I better off going with a hardwired Cat5 lighting solution over UPB? What would you do?

First off you are not comparing apples to apples. And I can't advise on pricing for ILine.


You included a complete control system with ALC and none with UPB. You would have to add some sort of controller to the UPB switches or at the very least one or more scene switches for a stand alone system that's not automated (scenes only). If you are going to use the M1 then remove the lighting controller because it's embedded into the Lighting Interface to M1 (thus duplicating your parts).

Further, the Distribution hub and branch hubs are also optional. I say to use them for a number of reasons, but they can be eliminated. Since you did not specify part numbers, I will also add that the lighting interface to m1 supports 31 ALC switches without expanding it (you listed 36 total switches). The expander cost would have to be added in your example, but this is a very reasonable price.

Next, we sell 3 brands of UPB - HAI, PCS (the patent holder for all UPB technology) and Web Mountain (which is the same as Simply Automated). And each one is priced differently. I shot from hip and advised a 10% difference betweeen ALC and UPB. When I just ran some numbers it's really closer to %12 - %15 based on which brand switch you choose.

Also note that the OnQ ALC can be made to stand alone without an automation system. But, unlike UPB who really only needs one or more scene switches, ALC needs one or more ALC scene swithces and the stand alone lighting controller.

If not confused yet, let me also say that if you use ALC with the Lighting interface to M1, then add some ALC scene switches (we also have them with IR receivers built in), and you can program scenes outside of the M1. For example, the ALC family of lighting controllers all support scenes without any programming required. This saves lines of code (Elk calls them Rules) and also allows you to change a scene by walking up to the scene switch and places it into learn mode.

Be sure not to leave off ALC scene switches, they are a reall value added asset to a lighting system. And...... if you so choose you can let the M1 use them as triggers for any event and not just lighting..... One last note. Since ALC is true 2-way, any manual switch press can trigger an automation event. Simply program the elk to listen for switch press and tell it what to do.

Hope this helps

 

[TonyStewart]

Well, I just got back from the plan and permitting office for my city, and have positive news. They said that they follow the NEC, and will allow LV and HV in the same box, as long as the LV has the proper insulation per code. I also had them look at the cut sheet for the OnQ lighting switches, so that they could see how they recommend wiring it, and they said that it looked good as well. This was verified by one of the actual inspectors as he walked by, and became interested in our conversation.

So this means that the OnQ or iLine systems would both work for my project...it looks like I will be calculating even more Cat5 cable runs now (I already have almost 30k' of cabling!!)

Thanks again for all of the great info and wisdom!

It's normally not a problem, Glad it worked out for you! Did you carry them pastries!

 

[Sacedog]

You included a complete control system with ALC and none with UPB. You would have to add some sort of controller to the UPB switches or at the very least one or more scene switches for a stand alone system that's not automated (scenes only). If you are going to use the M1 then remove the lighting controller because it's embedded into the Lighting Interface to M1 (thus duplicating your parts).

Good to know. I will be installing an Elk, so that would be the controller for UPB if I were to go that way. If I got the Elk lighting interface, would I not need the OnQ lighting controller?

Further, the Distribution hub and branch hubs are also optional. I say to use them for a number of reasons, but they can be eliminated. Since you did not specify part numbers, I will also add that the lighting interface to m1 supports 31 ALC switches without expanding it (you listed 36 total switches). The expander cost would have to be added in your example, but this is a very reasonable price.

That is great! So I would only need the lighting interface, and one branch hub? Does the branch hub connect directly to the M1 lighting interface?

If not confused yet, let me also say that if you use ALC with the Lighting interface to M1, then add some ALC scene switches (we also have them with IR receivers built in), and you can program scenes outside of the M1. For example, the ALC family of lighting controllers all support scenes without any programming required. This saves lines of code (Elk calls them Rules) and also allows you to change a scene by walking up to the scene switch and places it into learn mode.

Be sure not to leave off ALC scene switches, they are a reall value added asset to a lighting system. And...... if you so choose you can let the M1 use them as triggers for any event and not just lighting..... One last note. Since ALC is true 2-way, any manual switch press can trigger an automation event. Simply program the elk to listen for switch press and tell it what to do.

Hope this helps

Very nice! Your input has been VERY helpful. Thanks for all of the insight and information. Sounds like I need to plan on pulling Cat5 to all of my switches, and then give you a call when I get ready to design the system.

 

[TonyStewart]

You included a complete control system with ALC and none with UPB. You would have to add some sort of controller to the UPB switches or at the very least one or more scene switches for a stand alone system that's not automated (scenes only). If you are going to use the M1 then remove the lighting controller because it's embedded into the Lighting Interface to M1 (thus duplicating your parts).

Good to know. I will be installing an Elk, so that would be the controller for UPB if I were to go that way. If I got the Elk lighting interface, would I not need the OnQ lighting controller?

Further, the Distribution hub and branch hubs are also optional. I say to use them for a number of reasons, but they can be eliminated. Since you did not specify part numbers, I will also add that the lighting interface to m1 supports 31 ALC switches without expanding it (you listed 36 total switches). The expander cost would have to be added in your example, but this is a very reasonable price.

That is great! So I would only need the lighting interface, and one branch hub? Does the branch hub connect directly to the M1 lighting interface?

If not confused yet, let me also say that if you use ALC with the Lighting interface to M1, then add some ALC scene switches (we also have them with IR receivers built in), and you can program scenes outside of the M1. For example, the ALC family of lighting controllers all support scenes without any programming required. This saves lines of code (Elk calls them Rules) and also allows you to change a scene by walking up to the scene switch and places it into learn mode.

Be sure not to leave off ALC scene switches, they are a reall value added asset to a lighting system. And...... if you so choose you can let the M1 use them as triggers for any event and not just lighting..... One last note. Since ALC is true 2-way, any manual switch press can trigger an automation event. Simply program the elk to listen for switch press and tell it what to do.

Hope this helps

Very nice! Your input has been VERY helpful. Thanks for all of the insight and information. Sounds like I need to plan on pulling Cat5 to all of my switches, and then give you a call when I get ready to design the system.

You can do UPb and ALC at same tim ewith M1 if you desire.

No you will not need the ALC lighting controller and the Lighting Interface for M1

Yes all branch hubs etc attach to the ALC Lighting interface for the M1

 

[Sacedog]

You can do UPb and ALC at same tim ewith M1 if you desire.

No you will not need the ALC lighting controller and the Lighting Interface for M1

Yes all branch hubs etc attach to the ALC Lighting interface for the M1

Ok, so based on all of this information, the system pricing would look more like this:

• UPB - $2,100
  • 12 Dimming Switches
  • 24 Non-Dimming Switches
  • UPB PIM
• OnQ ALC - $2,300
  • 12 Dimming Switches
  • 24 Non-Dimming Switches
  • Lighting Interface to M1
  • Branch Hub

Unless someone tells me a good reason why I shouldn't go with a hard-wired Cat5 system, it looks like that is what I will be installing. One thing I did not add into the price was the cabling. For good cable, like Belden, that might add $100 or $200, depending on how long my runs are.

 

[mdonovan]

Sorry to butt in, but I was wondering if there is a serial adapter and a publicly documented protocol for ALC that I could use to develop my own software to configure and control the system

Matt