Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[RobWalker]

iLine lets you do the same thing ... but I don't feel comfortable leaving out the HV wiring, just in case down the road there was a need to revert to 'dumb' lighting (like if we sold the house).

Why woudl you revert? A scene-based lighting system, especially a higher-end hardwired one would make your house very appealing to prospective buyers.

Well, I wouldn't want to willingly ... but it is just good to know there is a worst-case scenario option that doesn't involve rewiring or large expense. If the manufacturer has disappeared in 15 years and a switch fails then at least there is a simple story on what you could do.

I've been wondering what a prospective buyer would think of a fully automated house -- I imagine many would be very nervous of a setup that came without any kind of maintenance agreement or warranty. Sure, you might find a fellow geek who was willing to value it based on what it was worth, but many buyers I think would just discount a lot of it, knowing they couldn't maintain it. Anyone have any actual experience of this?

 

[Herdfan]

but it is just good to know there is a worst-case scenario option that doesn't involve rewiring or large expense. If the manufacturer has disappeared in 15 years and a switch fails then at least there is a simple story on what you could do.

I've been wondering what a prospective buyer would think of a fully automated house -- I imagine many would be very nervous of a setup that came without any kind of maintenance agreement or warranty.

Actually, there are many manufacturers of cabinet based lighting control, so worst case there would be something available. And all of them preyy much wire the same way. It is not wrong, just different. The lighting system is no difference than any other large component of a house. A new HVAC system for a large house can easily cost $10K and some houses have 2-3 of these. Granite countertops can be $10K. Have you ever had to have a slab jacked? Its not cheap. My point is there are large expenses in maintaining a house and replacing components that fail. Lighting control is really no different.

If you choose a large well-known manufacturer (Lutron, Litetouch, Centralite), these companies are either 1)Going to be around or 2)Someone will have bought the patents and is supplying replacements parts. Their installed bases are too large to abandon.

I would jump at a house with any of the previously mentioned lighting system and a Crestron, AMX or Control4 (least likely) system. If it had X10, not a chance. CQC or HS or Mainlobby or any of the other DIY systems, then yes, I would want a full explanation of how it was installed and how it operates. These systems can be very relaible if they are installed properly. (ie don't run the automation off the kids game computer)

 

[rocco]

The beauty is that the switch wiring is NOT PROPIETARY like Centralyte, Litetouch, Vantage and some versions of Lutron.

And to add to Ctay's post:

The LiteJet switched are just momentary, dry-contact buttons. Six switches are supported by each cat-5 cable (two wires of the eight are common to all switches), and the pin-outs are documented. I found that the LiteJet is a drop-in replacement for a 50's era Touch-Plate system, and the original switches didn't even need to be replaced.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Some 3-ways should never be changed. Like stairwells and hallways. Others like a switch at the back door and one in the Master Bedroom to control the rear ligths can (and should) be replaced with one way (at the rear door) and a scene switch in the master bedroom. Here again. OnQ is the winner.

Why not the hallways and and stairwells? i want all my lights automated. are you saying hard wire for three way then re-wired for HA?

ps. do you work for on-q? LOL. seriously.

 

[TonyStewart]

Some 3-ways should never be changed. Like stairwells and hallways. Others like a switch at the back door and one in the Master Bedroom to control the rear ligths can (and should) be replaced with one way (at the rear door) and a scene switch in the master bedroom. Here again. OnQ is the winner.

Why not the hallways and and stairwells? i want all my lights automated. are you saying hard wire for three way then re-wired for HA?

ps. do you work for on-q? LOL. seriously.

Yes do automated these. But do not turn a 3-way into a one way just because it can be programmed so. No programming should be required to make safety related lights work. Stairwells and hallways can be automated but should never depend on programming to work. Who wants to come down the stairs in the dark when the lighting controller is down?

The big name systems like Crestron and Litetouch are all sweet systems, but they have a strong dependance on programming. WHen all is well and the controller is running then the lighting works well. But there are times when the system controller will be down and then you could have the house from ............

 

[TonyStewart]

but it is just good to know there is a worst-case scenario option that doesn't involve rewiring or large expense. If the manufacturer has disappeared in 15 years and a switch fails then at least there is a simple story on what you could do.

I've been wondering what a prospective buyer would think of a fully automated house -- I imagine many would be very nervous of a setup that came without any kind of maintenance agreement or warranty.

Actually, there are many manufacturers of cabinet based lighting control, so worst case there would be something available. And all of them preyy much wire the same way. It is not wrong, just different. The lighting system is no difference than any other large component of a house. A new HVAC system for a large house can easily cost $10K and some houses have 2-3 of these. Granite countertops can be $10K. Have you ever had to have a slab jacked? Its not cheap. My point is there are large expenses in maintaining a house and replacing components that fail. Lighting control is really no different.

If you choose a large well-known manufacturer (Lutron, Litetouch, Centralite), these companies are either 1)Going to be around or 2)Someone will have bought the patents and is supplying replacements parts. Their installed bases are too large to abandon.

I would jump at a house with any of the previously mentioned lighting system and a Crestron, AMX or Control4 (least likely) system. If it had X10, not a chance. CQC or HS or Mainlobby or any of the other DIY systems, then yes, I would want a full explanation of how it was installed and how it operates. These systems can be very relaible if they are installed properly. (ie don't run the automation off the kids game computer)

As a Crestron authorized dealer I certainly agree with most of your words about these type brands. But I was also one of the origianl Smarthouse installers up until 1995 when all of the manufacturers abandoned the system and left over $200 million dollars of R&D and several hundred homes wired with this system nationwide. One manufacturer was the orginal parent company of OnQ who later was bought by the employees and then recently by Legrand.

My point is that to date no company has spent as much money on a lighting system as did the Smarthouse manufactures and today there are almost no places to buy parts or service. While I don't wish this end to any current manufacturer, I think it wise to look at all the cards in the deck.

In all honesty I doubt that this would happent to the main names you mentioned but I thought this in 1992 when I installed several dozen Smarthouses nationwide. I am absolutely against proprietary wiring. That's why I love the OnQ ALC approach so well. Because programming is an option and the system can be replaced with a number of other products that use cat5 to communicate or can be replaced by standard swtiches from Lowes. And it's more dependable than some of the names mentioned.

Think about why the Smarthouse, Crestron or centralyte is popular for a minute. It's the attractive scene switches. OnQ offers 4 button scene switches for this purpose. And since it's open architecture, scene switches from a number of other sources can be used. OnQ don't have a large number of scene switch models to choose from like Litetouch or Vantage, but you won't to move to a hotel while the system controller is repaired. Better yet, these type switches are only about 10% more than UPB. Try that with Crestron or the others.

In summary, I like all the proprietary brands mentioned and have either installed all of them or troubleshot many of them. But when I did my home and office I used OnQ ALC.

 

[TonyStewart]

Some 3-ways should never be changed. Like stairwells and hallways. Others like a switch at the back door and one in the Master Bedroom to control the rear ligths can (and should) be replaced with one way (at the rear door) and a scene switch in the master bedroom. Here again. OnQ is the winner.

Why not the hallways and and stairwells? i want all my lights automated. are you saying hard wire for three way then re-wired for HA?

ps. do you work for on-q? LOL. seriously.

PS I forgot to answer your question about working for OnQ. No, I do not, I own SETNET who was an installer up until 1995 when Smarthouse fell apart and then started my distributorship based in Greer SC. We also started a training division for our industry and have held over 9,000 classroom hours of Home Automation and related topics since 1995. We also do a lot of web training as well. Visit SETNETPRO

As for my relationship with OnQ, I do go back with them to the beginning of their company. I also have known Spanky with Elk for many years as well (since they were MOOSE).

As relates to the OnQ ALC switch, I am partial for quite a few reasons. When Smarthouse was about to blow apart, the managers of the origianl parent company of OnQ (Then called the Building systems division), hired me as a consultant. The mission was simple...... Why was Smarthouse not catching on across the US and what could be done to save it? My Smarthouse dealership had enough size to plow through all the head aches and not give up after a few installs like most of the others nationwide did. So, our tenure got the attention fo the Smarthouse Lighting Guru's and they hired me.

My advice was that the proprietary nature of the wiring added complication, narrowed the installer base and developed a risky dependance upon their products. I followed that with the advice to create a switch like the ALC which Gary AXE with OnQ did. Yes, I am partial!

Today we no longer install, instead our team still has the years of experience as an installer and we use that to support our customers needs. We lean towards installers, but have some training programs for the DIY market too. We maintained all our dealerships and credentials for training purposes.

I love this business and hope my advice is well received as one of the old gang who desires to keep you guys from falling into the traps we did. We learned through the burn and learn method and hope to keep you guys from doing the same.

 

[Sacedog]

Wow! I thought this topic would get a few posts, but it has turned out to be a fantastic source of information.

I am definately leaning toward a standard-wiring based system, that is hard-wired using Cat5 (hence the topic title). I do not want to have something that cannot be converted to something else in the future, if the need arises. Also, I found it interesting that one user said that his Centralite system was the same price as the I-line solution. That surprises me, as ALL of the other posts I have read regarding a homerun-HV hardwired solution have been more expensive. I think that you may not have been including the cost of the additional Sparky work needed.

One of the things I like a lot about the OnQ system, is the availability of parts online. This lets me know that I do not have to call Sparky in the future to get another switch...I can just order one from a dozen different places.

The one downside to the Cat5 systems is that there do not seem to be drivers for these systems in any of the major HA software systems (CQC, ML, HS). Luckily the Elk does have direct support of both systems throught an M1XSP.

 

[Ranger Digital]

sace, I agree. great thread.

number, glad to have you aboard bud! I like seeing support for ALC as it doesnt seem to have the attention some of the others types have. Please, keep posting. I like your sytle. Too bad your not in texas, wouldnt mind taking some training classes.

Whats your take on On-q controllers? I understand while they are reliable, expandable and hearty, they lag a bit behind on ugrades given they are oem'd from HAI. Also, another downside is they must be polled to get info as they dont auto send it out like an elk would. However, I like the on-q team, the look, ease and moduler type compenents. I hope their new products coming can keep me focus on their company. I like them. Care to share anymore good or bad on the product line? Ideas, suggestion, comments?

I understand they are coming out with a kick butt touchscreen that is supposed to be cutting edge, who knows. I would rather see them get their controllers to send out info instead of having to ask for it. Its also a MUST for them to be able to integrate their other good products ie intercom, audio, cam's, etc. I was told that is coming and soon. Hope so. A MUST.

 

[ctay]

My advice was that the proprietary nature of the wiring added complication, narrowed the installer base and developed a risky dependance upon their products. I followed that with the advice to create a switch like the ALC which Gary AXE with OnQ did. Yes, I am partial!

I just want to reiterate that home run HV wiring IS NOT PROPRIETARY. There is NOTHING proprietary about having a low voltage switch leg. Running a cat 5 to the switch and HV to a central location will allow you to use literally dozens of lighting controllers from high tech requiring programming and very low tech that uses simple relays to switch the wiring with no microchip what so ever. Additionally, the only realistic opportunity that you have to choose to home run your HV lines is during construction. It really doesn't make financial sense to try to do it anytime after that.

There are some very real reasons to be hesitant about choosing a home run HV system but being locked into one company simply is not one of them. GE created a homerun HV system in the 1950's that is still in use today. If those people haven't been stranded in over 50 years I think it is safe to say you won't be stranded either. One reason I was hesitant about my homerun HV was that it meant that I had to install all the automated lighting right away. I had planned on changing out one switch at a time over a long period to stretch out the cost a little. In the end it was worth it for me to just get it done all at once. It may be different for you.

Also, I found it interesting that one user said that his Centralite system was the same price as the I-line solution. That surprises me, as ALL of the other posts I have read regarding a homerun-HV hardwired solution have been more expensive. I think that you may not have been including the cost of the additional Sparky work needed.

It is hard for me to say what the additional cost would be with a sparky as My father and I did our electrical. I don't see any reason (depending on your homes layout) that there should be much of an upcharge. I'm sure that most electricians would charge a little more as people don't like doing something different from what they are used to but in reality there is really not much different. They always have to run a switch leg, so with your Home run wiring they just run the switch leg back to a central location.

My Centralite Lightjet 48 load system with all the switches cost me just south of $4500. 48 switches from I-line (the other system I seriously considered using) would have cost between $3500 (bare minimum dealers pricing) and $5000 (Retail). Throw in a number that the electrician would charge and there you go. Just an FYI we actually used LESS romex than we would have had we wired traditionally. I know this is totally counter intuitive but it is true. 3 way switches can use up a lot of romex.

The point I'm really trying to make (poorly) is that you should consider every lighting system you can before you count out one or another. Find out what works best for your situation and go with that.

Chris

 

[Sacedog]

It is hard for me to say what the additional cost would be with a sparky as My father and I did our electrical. I don't see any reason (depending on your homes layout) that there should be much of an upcharge. I'm sure that most electricians would charge a little more as people don't like doing something different from what they are used to but in reality there is really not much different. They always have to run a switch leg, so with your Home run wiring they just run the switch leg back to a central location.

My Centralite Lightjet 48 load system with all the switches cost me just south of $4500. 48 switches from I-line (the other system I seriously considered using) would have cost between $3500 (bare minimum dealers pricing) and $5000 (Retail). Throw in a number that the electrician would charge and there you go. Just an FYI we actually used LESS romex than we would have had we wired traditionally. I know this is totally counter intuitive but it is true. 3 way switches can use up a lot of romex.

The point I'm really trying to make (poorly) is that you should consider every lighting system you can before you count out one or another. Find out what works best for your situation and go with that.

Chris

Point well made. I will certainly be talking with our builder about a homerun system too at this point. I'll listen to what their electrician has to say, and that should help me make the decision better. Better to make an informed decision now, than to realize that I should have gone a different direction later.

 

[TonyStewart]

Wow! I thought this topic would get a few posts, but it has turned out to be a fantastic source of information.

I am definately leaning toward a standard-wiring based system, that is hard-wired using Cat5 (hence the topic title). I do not want to have something that cannot be converted to something else in the future, if the need arises. Also, I found it interesting that one user said that his Centralite system was the same price as the I-line solution. That surprises me, as ALL of the other posts I have read regarding a homerun-HV hardwired solution have been more expensive. I think that you may not have been including the cost of the additional Sparky work needed.

One of the things I like a lot about the OnQ system, is the availability of parts online. This lets me know that I do not have to call Sparky in the future to get another switch...I can just order one from a dozen different places.

The one downside to the Cat5 systems is that there do not seem to be drivers for these systems in any of the major HA software systems (CQC, ML, HS). Luckily the Elk does have direct support of both systems throught an M1XSP.

I am new to Cocoon tech. Spanky introduced me a long time ago, but I am just now starting to post. As the new guy I want to accomplish a number of things. First I am a long time veteran in this industry dating back to way before the first Electronic House trade show (now called CE TECH HOME) where I was one of the original 12 member sof the founding board of directors. This is mentioned not as my accolade, but more to illustrate that I have seen a long of products and people come and go. As such, I desire to help others avoid pitfalls.

I also have been a educator in this industry since 1996 and feel a particular closeness to the techies. Lastly, I desire to feed my family. I do this as a distributor selling nationwide through our setnetpro web site. Of course I promote what I sell, but not at the sake of good advice. Actually, I would not choose to sell products that I don't beleive in, even if there was a lot of money to be made. I burned and learned as an installer for many years before I started SETNETPRO.

NOW THAT MY INTRODUCTORY SPEECH IS OVER........ On to your comments.

OnQ developed an interface for the OnQ ALC that rids you of the need to use the Elk-M1XSP and it's a sweet deal. Call us at M-F 9-5 Eastern at 1-864-663-0011 and I will tell you about it. AS for drivers, the serial protocol is available for the ALC products and is easy to mesh into most open architecure systems and software packages.

 

[TonyStewart]

My advice was that the proprietary nature of the wiring added complication, narrowed the installer base and developed a risky dependance upon their products. I followed that with the advice to create a switch like the ALC which Gary AXE with OnQ did. Yes, I am partial!

I just want to reiterate that home run HV wiring IS NOT PROPRIETARY. There is NOTHING proprietary about having a low voltage switch leg. Running a cat 5 to the switch and HV to a central location will allow you to use literally dozens of lighting controllers from high tech requiring programming and very low tech that uses simple relays to switch the wiring with no microchip what so ever. Additionally, the only realistic opportunity that you have to choose to home run your HV lines is during construction. It really doesn't make financial sense to try to do it anytime after that.

There are some very real reasons to be hesitant about choosing a home run HV system but being locked into one company simply is not one of them. GE created a homerun HV system in the 1950's that is still in use today. If those people haven't been stranded in over 50 years I think it is safe to say you won't be stranded either. One reason I was hesitant about my homerun HV was that it meant that I had to install all the automated lighting right away. I had planned on changing out one switch at a time over a long period to stretch out the cost a little. In the end it was worth it for me to just get it done all at once. It may be different for you.

Also, I found it interesting that one user said that his Centralite system was the same price as the I-line solution. That surprises me, as ALL of the other posts I have read regarding a homerun-HV hardwired solution have been more expensive. I think that you may not have been including the cost of the additional Sparky work needed.

It is hard for me to say what the additional cost would be with a sparky as My father and I did our electrical. I don't see any reason (depending on your homes layout) that there should be much of an upcharge. I'm sure that most electricians would charge a little more as people don't like doing something different from what they are used to but in reality there is really not much different. They always have to run a switch leg, so with your Home run wiring they just run the switch leg back to a central location.

My Centralite Lightjet 48 load system with all the switches cost me just south of $4500. 48 switches from I-line (the other system I seriously considered using) would have cost between $3500 (bare minimum dealers pricing) and $5000 (Retail). Throw in a number that the electrician would charge and there you go. Just an FYI we actually used LESS romex than we would have had we wired traditionally. I know this is totally counter intuitive but it is true. 3 way switches can use up a lot of romex.

The point I'm really trying to make (poorly) is that you should consider every lighting system you can before you count out one or another. Find out what works best for your situation and go with that.

Chris

Sorry if I was not clear. Let me tell you my definition of Proprietary.

If the device can't be replaced by standard electrical (without any rewiring) and/or if the device must be serviced by a factory authorized service person and/or if you can't operate the device without a system controller and/or if you must move to a hotel until the repair is made...

I strive to design around parts that are available off the shelf and that can be serviced or installed by thousands of people nationwide. I also like to let each subsystem stand on it's own. Meaning when the swimming pool pump quits and the water turns green, I think it risky to have the automation system be the source of the complaints. Instead, it's much better to let the Pool guy get my wrath.

More specifically when the morning wake up mode fails to gently wake me up with lighting that ramps up gently as I awake, I would love to be able to manually press the switch on the wall, get some lighting on and then worry about the automation system as a lower priority. If the lighting is totally proprietary, then the lights may not even work manually. That's when proprietary takes on a whole new meaning!

 

[TonyStewart]

but it is just good to know there is a worst-case scenario option that doesn't involve rewiring or large expense. If the manufacturer has disappeared in 15 years and a switch fails then at least there is a simple story on what you could do.

I've been wondering what a prospective buyer would think of a fully automated house -- I imagine many would be very nervous of a setup that came without any kind of maintenance agreement or warranty.

Actually, there are many manufacturers of cabinet based lighting control, so worst case there would be something available. And all of them preyy much wire the same way. It is not wrong, just different. The lighting system is no difference than any other large component of a house. A new HVAC system for a large house can easily cost $10K and some houses have 2-3 of these. Granite countertops can be $10K. Have you ever had to have a slab jacked? Its not cheap. My point is there are large expenses in maintaining a house and replacing components that fail. Lighting control is really no different.

If you choose a large well-known manufacturer (Lutron, Litetouch, Centralite), these companies are either 1)Going to be around or 2)Someone will have bought the patents and is supplying replacements parts. Their installed bases are too large to abandon.

I would jump at a house with any of the previously mentioned lighting system and a Crestron, AMX or Control4 (least likely) system. If it had X10, not a chance. CQC or HS or Mainlobby or any of the other DIY systems, then yes, I would want a full explanation of how it was installed and how it operates. These systems can be very relaible if they are installed properly. (ie don't run the automation off the kids game computer)

A fully automated house narrows the client base who would purchase your home. This has proven true too many times. I know my advice flys in the face of the techno crowd, and that another technie would love to have a fully automated house, but unlike nice countertops who are attractive to most all buyers, home automation is not.

This fact is one of the reasons that many Homebuilders still resist our industry. They know that it adds cost and complication and that it cause their market to shrink. This is not true with all builders as some are using techology to advantage, but many still resist and they have a good point.

We just went to Honolulu to convert a 4 story mansion (used as a very high end rental property) back to conventional lighting for a client. It took 6 of us a week to accomplish. We used the proprietary Smarthouse wiring (brand name from the mid 90's) and installed OnQ ALC switches. Today, the home has no automation and the OnQ ALC switches operate as manual only.

When this this homeowner found us they had lights that had not worked for several years (because of the obsolescene of the Smarthouse system). Whiel we normally don't do installs anymore, I could not turn down a trip to Honolulu.

This homeowner along with many we have met over the years wished they had never heard of Smart Houses. Sure today's technology is better, faster, but the dangers are still the same. The smart play is not to rewire your home around the lighting or automation choice. Then if you want to take your system out and carry it with you to the next home you can do so. Open Architecture is the key. If thoughtful choices are made, most automated events in the home can be planned to be open architecture!

 

[TonyStewart]

sace, I agree. great thread.

number, glad to have you aboard bud! I like seeing support for ALC as it doesnt seem to have the attention some of the others types have. Please, keep posting. I like your sytle. Too bad your not in texas, wouldnt mind taking some training classes.

Whats your take on On-q controllers? I understand while they are reliable, expandable and hearty, they lag a bit behind on ugrades given they are oem'd from HAI. Also, another downside is they must be polled to get info as they dont auto send it out like an elk would. However, I like the on-q team, the look, ease and moduler type compenents. I hope their new products coming can keep me focus on their company. I like them. Care to share anymore good or bad on the product line? Ideas, suggestion, comments?

I understand they are coming out with a kick butt touchscreen that is supposed to be cutting edge, who knows. I would rather see them get their controllers to send out info instead of having to ask for it. Its also a MUST for them to be able to integrate their other good products ie intercom, audio, cam's, etc. I was told that is coming and soon. Hope so. A MUST.

Since 1996 we have had students from all 50 states and 14 foreign countries. Early this week we will post on our calendar See our Calendar herethe dates of a new multi day school where we will teach how to install into exisitng homes. It will be hands on, programming, design and more. However, we have a large library of web or DVD classes too. Within the next few weeks we will releash over a dozen new web classes that we are finalizing now. Check our calendar often as the classes will fill up fast. Also not that our classroom is very nice and features a complete theme theater environment. Video of the classroom

You may also want to get your own password so that you get our emails, especially about the live classroom events that you watch in streaming video while they happen.

Now your question.
Controllers for OnQ ALC are - Elk-m1 and Elk-EZ8, All models of HAI Omni and OnQ has their own (made by HAI) called HMS. And...... They also have stand alone lighting controllers which are great and very nicely priced. See Stand Alone ALC Products here.

You are wrong about oem from HAI, all OnQ ALC products including stand alone controllers are made by OnQ and not HAI. And they are certainly not lagging behind in any way. The problem with their ALC product line is the OnQ is too busy being the world leader in Structured wiring and Greyfox products to promote ALC (which has been around for over 12 years).

Another misconception is that they must be "polled". They do not require polling as they are always sending their status with no intervention from programming. The constant status upgrades is one of their strengths. Unlike almost all other lighting products discussed in this forum, they can use this advantage to become an "occupancy sensor" Meaning that they can trigger an automation event when manually pressed. Someone turning on the light in the wine cellar could call dad at work.

And the dimming capabilties is another place they shine. Ramp over time is a feature not present in most systems and you get it for free........

Lot's of new things coming related to intercoms. Like intercom and whole house audio integration. But I am gun shy as to saying when. As a distributor, I like to sell what's on the shelf not promises.

The stand alone lighting controller advantage lies in the fact that if you only want nice lighting, why bother with a full automation controller? And you can expand this unit to do minor automation like adding an I/O module to say turn on the front porch light when the door bell button is pressed. To do this trick add the Elk-930 See Here to handle the doorbell button and then add the ALC I/O module.

One of the prime features of the ALC is the scene switches. When used with any of the mentioned controllers (may require the associated lighting interface) or the stand alone controller, no programming is necessary. While you can program events if you like, you can also program lighting scenes Scene Switches as easily as pressing one of the scene buttons for 15 seconds, set each ALC switch to desired level then press the scene switch buttom again. That's it. The scene is programmed!

The touch screens you asked about are as follows. Elk currently has a wonderful touchscreen (see our free web training for more details) and HAI is coming out with their new touchscreen as well. OnQ has one too.
In summary there are lot's of things you can do with the stand alone ALC controller