Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[Sacedog]

I actually received my answer directly from EDT, regarding switch operation. Here is the quote:

"The i-LiNE devices are required to be connected the network for operation. If you just install the i-ON in the wall, it will not function without the network cable attached. This was specifically designed to provide a more robust and surge resistant system by separating the communications side from the high voltage side."

They recommend installing standard switches first, to "verify" that all of your loads are working correctly.

I'm just wondering, in new construction (i.e. new electrical wiring), would a system such as this be more reliable than something like UPB?

 

[pkarakis]

Sacedog,
The newer i-line switches will function independent from the system like a regular switch in the case of a network failure. The ones that wouldn't work are 2-way and 3-ways that are connected only with the CAT5.
As far as cost, I think the whole thing cost me $6800.00 for the switches. I bought them directly from EDT. I think if you call them or email them you will find that they will sell to you directly, but at a slightly higher price than what a dealer could buy them for.

Pete

 

[Sacedog]

Sacedog,
The newer i-line switches will function independent from the system like a regular switch in the case of a network failure. The ones that wouldn't work are 2-way and 3-ways that are connected only with the CAT5.
As far as cost, I think the whole thing cost me $6800.00 for the switches. I bought them directly from EDT. I think if you call them or email them you will find that they will sell to you directly, but at a slightly higher price than what a dealer could buy them for.

Pete

Wierd that the tech from EDT would not give me that information based on my inquiry. Do you know what model switches that you purchased? Were they not the i-ON ones?

Also, did your purchase also cover any of the control modules, or was that just for the switches?

 

[CollinR]

On the i-Line stuff, where do you get Cat5 with a insulation rating of 120v? Do you have to buy the wire from EDT too?

 

[Sacedog]

On the i-Line stuff, where do you get Cat5 with a insulation rating of 120v? Do you have to buy the wire from EDT too?

Great question, as I was wondering the same thing. I looked through Belden's catalog, and did not find anything (although the catalog IS 824 pages long, so I didn't look with too much detail )

The OnQ ALC system comes with sheathing that goes over the top of standard non-plenium, unshielded, Cat5. I'm not sure if that is to code in my area, but if I were to install one of these types of systems, I would definately check that out.

 

[CollinR]

After reading this I plan to go visit i-Line this seems to me to be a very logical approach even to retrofit installs.


On the x10 query, I would assume you could make a bombproof x10 connection. Just make one dummy circuit that is pre-filtered and only goes between the two devices, now it's just up to software to send and recieve the information properly. I would assume this senario to be very reliable, only 2 devices and basically hardwared.

 

[RobWalker]

This house building stuff is time consuming ... missed a day or so and it looks like most of your questions have been answered already by people with much more experience than I have so far, but for what its worth ...

This is interesting, and I might look at getting their evualation kit. I assume that you ordered the kit...if so, how was the responsivness of the switches? Also, have you tried controlling the evualation switches with the M1 yet? I now see that the M1 has support for both the I-Line and the OnQ ALC products.

I was very happy with the responsiveness of the switches, there was no perceivable delay. I found the default ramp up/down timer for the dimmer to be a little slow, but I believe that is configurable in software. I haven't hooked it up to the M1 yet .. haven't actually bought the M1 yet, but I was only able to find good comments about the integration and no problems.

What made you decide on I-Line over OnQ ALC?

I'm not sure I looked all that seriously at the OnQ system, but I don't remember why since the process was the best part of a year ago. The powerline options were ruled out based on reliability, and iLine won over Centralite based on cost and not having to home run all the wiring. At time time C-Bus wasn't an option ... still not sure if it is up here in the great white North.

Lastly, what is the cost of the system that you are putting in? What about individual switches? Are you having the system put in, or are you installing it yourself?

I have budgeted around $3300 (US) for the equipment, which should cover around 28 loads and the controllers, wire and assorted hardware. I've been trying to source 110V rated CAT5 locally since I hate to pay for shipping and brokerage fees for wire ... but without any luck. I've been dealing directly with EDT and they have been very helpful and responsive to date.

I am putting the system in myself, but then I am doing all the electrical work myself. As far as I know there is no other option locally.

Thanks for any info...sorry to bombard you with questions.

FWIW, I am looking for a system where the lighting loads are run to the switches, so I think Centralite is out for me.

Yes, BSR, I Seek the GRAIL...I just don't want to end up like the Black Knight after paying for it.

Good luck with your research!

 

[RobWalker]

...

be careful on three way switches though. the on-q will allow you to have ZERO three-way switch HV wiring in your house. that can be a savings on your wiring bill from the electrician!! as you likely know, in a three way scenario with on-q its a simple one-way typical wiring scheme to one switch then a cat5 over to a dummy slave (or auxiallary) switch. so no need for any 3 way HV wiring. so, if you are goin with on-q in a prewire situation, you may want to go ahead and do the 3 way scenario up front, otherwise if you hard wire HV 3 way its a mess to change over later.

iLine lets you do the same thing ... but I don't feel comfortable leaving out the HV wiring, just in case down the road there was a need to revert to 'dumb' lighting (like if we sold the house).

I'll have to make sure that I work out how to convert it though. I had asked EDT if it were possible, but hadn't followed through on all the details (I know, fatal mistake!) I had assumed it would be a case of just wiring a couple of cables together and putting a slave switch in one of the locations. I'll have to break out the wiring books again

 

[hult]

I am getting ready to begin building, and will be pulling all of the LV wiring for the house after framing is done. I don't really want to spend the money on a HV hardwired lighting system, or have the wall-o-switches in the basement, and I would like to retain local control at all lighting locations. I have read a lot of posts regarding Cat5 wired systems, and wonder if they are any better than UPB. I thought I was sold on UPB, but want it to be as reliable as possible (without costing a fortune).

So, first question is, are there other Cat5 lighting systems out there besides I-Line and OnQ?


Do any of the Cat5 hardwired systems have drivers written for CQC (or possibly HL)?


Lastly, do the Cat5 lighting systems have better reliability than UPB?


Thanks for any input on this. I have most of my other decisions made, but am still wavering on lighting. It seems that people are pretty happy with UPB, but if I can increase reliability a bit more, with just running some additional Cat5, I would willingly do it.

Here is a list of some of the principal *proprietary* hardwired lighting systems in use in the US andd Canada.

Most (all?) can use Cat5 as the low-voltage control wiring.

Brightan Systems www.brightan.com/
Clipsal (Square-D in US) www.clipsal.com www.squaredlightingcontrol.com/
Centralite www.centralite.com
Day Light Controls www.daylightcontrols.com
Futronix www.futronix.com
LEAX www.leaxcontrols.com
Leviton www.leviton.com
Lightolier www.lolcontrols.com
Lite Touch www.litetouch.com
MicroLite www.microlite.com
Nexlight www.nexlight.com
NSI/Luma-Net http://lms.leviton.com/productsfamlist.aspx?id=3
Touchplate www.touchplate.com
Tridonic ATCO www.tridonicatco.com
Vantage Controls www.vantagecontrols.com

Along with Centralite, I suggest taking a particularly good look at Clipsal (Square-D in the US).

DMX-512 (aka ANSI E1.11-2004 - USITT DMX512A ) is the US international *open-standard* (non-proprietary) hardwired lighting system in use in entertainment and architectural settings. There are new variants using ethernet and RF.

I have developed a DIY hardwired lighting system for use in my home that has elements of DMX512 that is (partly)described on my (out-of-date)web site.

... Marc

 

[TonyStewart]

A couple more questions for those who might know the answers:

It looks like EDT only sells their I-Line products through dealers. Is this who would provide the support for that system, or if I purchased through a dealer, would I be able to get support directly from EDT.

It looks like the OnQ ALC system communicates to the Elk through X10. Considering this, wouldn't this be just as unreliable as traditional X10 lighting products? It seems silly to have a hardwired lighting system, that still uses X10 to communicate to the Elk.

Wrong. There are two ways for ALC to talk to ELK
1. Use the ALC to M1 Interface that attaches to the M1 data bus (best method) - See this link OnQ ALC to M1 Interface

2. Use the Elk-m1SXP serial interface and the OnQ Serial interface, add an Onq Lighting interface and a cable and that's it!

Both choices use the M1 bus and the price is very low. The OnQ ALC lighting is only about 10% higher than UPB!

 

[TonyStewart]

I am getting ready to begin building, and will be pulling all of the LV wiring for the house after framing is done. I don't really want to spend the money on a HV hardwired lighting system, or have the wall-o-switches in the basement, and I would like to retain local control at all lighting locations. I have read a lot of posts regarding Cat5 wired systems, and wonder if they are any better than UPB. I thought I was sold on UPB, but want it to be as reliable as possible (without costing a fortune).

So, first question is, are there other Cat5 lighting systems out there besides I-Line and OnQ?


Do any of the Cat5 hardwired systems have drivers written for CQC (or possibly HL)?


Lastly, do the Cat5 lighting systems have better reliability than UPB?


Thanks for any input on this. I have most of my other decisions made, but am still wavering on lighting. It seems that people are pretty happy with UPB, but if I can increase reliability a bit more, with just running some additional Cat5, I would willingly do it.

Use the OnQ ALC lighting system above all else. Here's why.
1. Was created over 12 years ago while OnQ was owned by AMP. And it's still shipping today.
2. Cost is about 10% more than UPB, and far cheaper than any other posts to your question.
3. The electrician wires the home like normal using OnQ switches insted of standard. The Cat5 cable attaches to the ALC 4 volt polling loop on two wires. Do this on top of the electrical box (for the inspectors benefit). You can of course relocate switches to the back of coat closets should you wish to reduce wall acne where there will be many switches in one location. The beauty is that the switch wiring is NOT PROPIETARY like Centralyte, Litetouch, Vantage and some versions of Lutron.
4. With open architecture wiring, the OnQ ALC does not scare the local electricians.
5. ALC does not use X-10, it's a polling loop system and as such is 100% dependable and it comes in 6 colors with 2 types of scene switches.
6. ALC works even without a lighting controller of a home automation controller. Just like a standard dimmer or relay switch.
7. The two way communicaitons allows ALC to be used as occupancy sensors and for positive confirmation of the light's onoff status. Occupancy sensor meands if little Sally turns on her bedroom light after midnight, you can program an Elk, OnQ or HAI controller to wake Mom up to check on her....
8. ALC can do RAMP over TIME. Meaning Program (requires a controller for this trick) the light to start coming on 45 minutes before dark and take 45 minutes to ram up to a specific level . The effect is that as the sun darkens, the room slowly brightens. Try that with I-Line!
9. OnQ has their own stand alone lighting controller that allows advanced lighting control at a very low price. You can even add triggers like doorbell buttons. Of course you can always add a system controller for max bells and whistles.
10. There is much more, but I'm tired of typing. ALC is the choice - bar none!

Check this site for more or call these folks ALC from SETNET

 

[TonyStewart]

...

be careful on three way switches though. the on-q will allow you to have ZERO three-way switch HV wiring in your house. that can be a savings on your wiring bill from the electrician!! as you likely know, in a three way scenario with on-q its a simple one-way typical wiring scheme to one switch then a cat5 over to a dummy slave (or auxiallary) switch. so no need for any 3 way HV wiring. so, if you are goin with on-q in a prewire situation, you may want to go ahead and do the 3 way scenario up front, otherwise if you hard wire HV 3 way its a mess to change over later.

iLine lets you do the same thing ... but I don't feel comfortable leaving out the HV wiring, just in case down the road there was a need to revert to 'dumb' lighting (like if we sold the house).

I'll have to make sure that I work out how to convert it though. I had asked EDT if it were possible, but hadn't followed through on all the details (I know, fatal mistake!) I had assumed it would be a case of just wiring a couple of cables together and putting a slave switch in one of the locations. I'll have to break out the wiring books again

Good advice!
Always wire the house so that it can be dumbed up later (put back to standard). Be careful with proprietary lighting system. The AMP and Molex company put well over $100 million into the Smarthouse lighting sytem in the early 90's and they both dropped it by 1995 leaving hundreds of homes with limited resources for maintenance. Don't let this happent to you. OnQ ALC may just well be the best choice of all brands mentioned for this approach.

Some 3-ways should never be changed. Like stairwells and hallways. Others like a switch at the back door and one in the Master Bedroom to control the rear ligths can (and should) be replaced with one way (at the rear door) and a scene switch in the master bedroom. Here again. OnQ is the winner.

 

[TonyStewart]

On the i-Line stuff, where do you get Cat5 with a insulation rating of 120v? Do you have to buy the wire from EDT too?

The insulation rating is one factor, but Article 725 paragraph A54 excpetion 13 of the national electrical code is what allows you to use cat5 insde the box with high voltage on switches like the OnQ ALC.

But don't do it that way. Instead, get an adhesive clip from lowes (Part numebr GKK 1532 if they still sell it) and use it to attach and hold the cat5 to the top of each electrical box during prewire. THen after the drywall is up and before the painting (so you can fish out wires and patch drywall if need be) fish out the cat 5 and run the OnQ ALC polling loop and 3-way low voltage wires to it, then reinsert it back into the gap.

This works great and you don't have to wave the electrical code in the inspectors face. The mention of the article in the NEC is included with every OnQ ALC switch along with a drawing on how to install it.

The other reason for not putting the low voltage inside the high voltage box is for futre troubleshooting. It's much easier to troubelshoot if you don't have to remove the light switch to put a voltmeter on the wires.

here is a handy little (OPTIONAL) device to consider Optional Wiring Hub This puppy let's you run all cat6 (up to 9 per hub) to this device and then send one cat5 to the controller. It also has dip switches for troubleshooting your install.

 

[ctay]

The beauty is that the switch wiring is NOT PROPIETARY like Centralyte, Litetouch, Vantage and some versions of Lutron.

Just want to clear one thing up. Home run HV wiring with a low voltage switch leg is FAR from proprietary. GE had (HAS) a system that was wired this way 50 years ago and it is still in use in houses all over America today. It may not be common but there are plenty of ways to do low voltage switched lighting. If your building a new house do yourself a favor and get this stumbling block out of your way before you decide what lighting system you go with. If you choose to go with a non automated lighting system at some future date you could simply replace your centralite system or what ever you choose with old school low tech relays and be on your way. Function would be virtually EXACTLY the same as if you wired traditionally. Bottom line there is NO reason not to consider a home run HV lighting system along with other options.

I was on the verge of purchasing a I-line system for my new house but decided to go with Centralite. I wanted to clear up the wall clutter and I couldn't do that with I-Line. Centralite also was a little cheaper than the I-line for my 48 loads.

 

[Herdfan]

iLine lets you do the same thing ... but I don't feel comfortable leaving out the HV wiring, just in case down the road there was a need to revert to 'dumb' lighting (like if we sold the house).

Why woudl you revert? A scene-based lighting system, especially a higher-end hardwired one would make your house very appealing to prospective buyers.