This subject seems to come up a lot. Its certainly your home and you can do what you want, but these smokes are not designed to be connected to a monitored alarm panel, these relays were never designed to connect to a monitored alarm panel, and in many cases, making these connections is a violation of building fire codes, and always a violation of UL certification. Again, your house, you control it, but I just note this so someone less experienced reading this won't assume its perfectly OK just because others are doing it. And I've heard all the reasons, wife doesn't like double smokes, they are ugly, why should I need double, these smokes are cheaper, etc. This also explains why the relay, designed for circulation fans and automated fire doors, doesn't explain how to connect to a monitored panel.
Automating "normal" smoke detectors
- Thread starter Frunple
- Start date
I also have the SM120X and CO120X working with my HAI OmniPro II. It was straight forward to setup.
Bingo. Connecting devices in manners they were never designed or tested to work properly.
Not to mention if a failure of the components or modification of the circuit causes the fire alarm to not work as designed. We also deal with AHJ's that will argue against alarm system smokes because of their concern about a panel failure and the system being disconnected leaving the HO with no protection whatsoever vs. the HV interconnected units being somewhat (hopefully) more difficult to remove/disable.
In the end, others will always do what they want no matter what, but in my case (as a pro) I need to do what works 100% all the time, is UL listed, and honestly, in my case, does not add up to gross negligence. I can sleep pretty well at night knowing all these things.
Frunple
Active Member
I think you are misinformed.
It says right in the brochure "such as external bells and sirens, hallway or stairway lighting." so it's obviously not just for circulation fans and doors.
Maybe they have been upgraded since you've last seen them?
Code:
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/Assets/Sheet_Relay%20Modules.pdf
mikejrc
Active Member
I have seen both documents from Kidde and specifically this part:
"SM120X can be used to activate auxiliary warning devices such as external bells and sirens, hallway or stairway lighting."
that implies that this relay is to be used with other fire appliances that require power, and every example in the manual that uses the no/nc contacts is related to an auxiliary device, the only one not being powered is a manual station. The manual station closes the contact that will energize the relay and send a 9V signal to other smokes down and upstream and send 120v to auxiliary strobes sirens etc.
Im not saying that somehow you found a way to use the contacts to activate an input in your alarm but what im saying is by only using the SM120X relay you may be doing something dangerous and breaking code.
The only way I would do it safely but im sure is not code compliant is to get a "relay in a box", and when a smoke detector goes into alarm then SM120X will energize and send 120v, the relay in a box will be connected to that 120v energizing and closing its no/nc contacts attached to your alarm input.
"SM120X can be used to activate auxiliary warning devices such as external bells and sirens, hallway or stairway lighting."
that implies that this relay is to be used with other fire appliances that require power, and every example in the manual that uses the no/nc contacts is related to an auxiliary device, the only one not being powered is a manual station. The manual station closes the contact that will energize the relay and send a 9V signal to other smokes down and upstream and send 120v to auxiliary strobes sirens etc.
Im not saying that somehow you found a way to use the contacts to activate an input in your alarm but what im saying is by only using the SM120X relay you may be doing something dangerous and breaking code.
The only way I would do it safely but im sure is not code compliant is to get a "relay in a box", and when a smoke detector goes into alarm then SM120X will energize and send 120v, the relay in a box will be connected to that 120v energizing and closing its no/nc contacts attached to your alarm input.
pete_c
Guru
I just installed a second set and left the original 120VAC in place in my home.
It was already somewhat of a unique effort for the additional EOL / in panel relays and wiring; my preference after the time spent was to make them autonomous looking more at function than aesthetics.
Nowadays too with insurance companies being much more granular in the "claim" department; better to play it safer.
Last year in FL had to replace all of the 120VAC smokes as they started to fail with error beeps after about 10 years. Intially I always thought they lasted forever(?). The FL building codes specified a smoke in very room in the home.
It was already somewhat of a unique effort for the additional EOL / in panel relays and wiring; my preference after the time spent was to make them autonomous looking more at function than aesthetics.
Nowadays too with insurance companies being much more granular in the "claim" department; better to play it safer.
Last year in FL had to replace all of the 120VAC smokes as they started to fail with error beeps after about 10 years. Intially I always thought they lasted forever(?). The FL building codes specified a smoke in very room in the home.
NFPA cites any smoke detector that can't be metered for sensitivity needs to be replaced at 10 years.
Sounds like a local requirement in your case, however. The standard code requirement is 1 on each habitable floor with 1 in each bedroom or what is classified as a sleeping area. The only real modification to that is there needs to be 1 detector adjacent to the bedroom/sleeping areaa, but generally the 1 installed on the floor itself serves that purpose, unless the AHJ wants more installed on a floor due to sq footage or distance/hallways.
Lou and others had it right, that unit (and most others like it) were designed to allow the HV local smoke detectors to trip something else, such as a strobe (hearing impaired), warning signs, exhaust fans or similar, or another application approved or required by the AHJ for a particular system design element, never to interface with an alarm panel.
I,myself as a professional have to follow a line that can not be crossed. You as a DIY may be able to get away with things that if we did it, would cause our license to be revoked. All I can do is give you the benefit of years of experience, not that what you want is absolutely wrong. Everyday we read things here that make our skin crawl, but ultimately it's the user’s decision and so long as they are doing it legally, all we can do is disagree.
It's never been a case of can it be done, since it can. It's never been a case of if equipment exists to do it, it's available. The issue has always been NEC and the applicable NFPA sections. Unfortunately, the average consumer neither has a copy of NEC or understands what it's really saying when it does say something they do not understand. Every alarm installer can tell you about the following:
"Not withstanding the requirements of section(s)...."
"The above section shall not apply if...."
"The above section shall apply if..."
"The following requirements shall apply if the provisions of section XXX applies, but is exempt if not adhering to the classifications of section XXX, unless sections XXX and XXX are applicable without the requirements of section XXXX and, or in accordance with sections XXXX. But nothing in this section shall waiver the requirements of sections XX and XX"
So the safest answer to any DIYer when dealing with something we know is walking the line: Contact your AHJ for the correct local answer.
Sounds like a local requirement in your case, however. The standard code requirement is 1 on each habitable floor with 1 in each bedroom or what is classified as a sleeping area. The only real modification to that is there needs to be 1 detector adjacent to the bedroom/sleeping areaa, but generally the 1 installed on the floor itself serves that purpose, unless the AHJ wants more installed on a floor due to sq footage or distance/hallways.
Lou and others had it right, that unit (and most others like it) were designed to allow the HV local smoke detectors to trip something else, such as a strobe (hearing impaired), warning signs, exhaust fans or similar, or another application approved or required by the AHJ for a particular system design element, never to interface with an alarm panel.
I,myself as a professional have to follow a line that can not be crossed. You as a DIY may be able to get away with things that if we did it, would cause our license to be revoked. All I can do is give you the benefit of years of experience, not that what you want is absolutely wrong. Everyday we read things here that make our skin crawl, but ultimately it's the user’s decision and so long as they are doing it legally, all we can do is disagree.
It's never been a case of can it be done, since it can. It's never been a case of if equipment exists to do it, it's available. The issue has always been NEC and the applicable NFPA sections. Unfortunately, the average consumer neither has a copy of NEC or understands what it's really saying when it does say something they do not understand. Every alarm installer can tell you about the following:
"Not withstanding the requirements of section(s)...."
"The above section shall not apply if...."
"The above section shall apply if..."
"The following requirements shall apply if the provisions of section XXX applies, but is exempt if not adhering to the classifications of section XXX, unless sections XXX and XXX are applicable without the requirements of section XXXX and, or in accordance with sections XXXX. But nothing in this section shall waiver the requirements of sections XX and XX"
So the safest answer to any DIYer when dealing with something we know is walking the line: Contact your AHJ for the correct local answer.
Frunple
Active Member
"Our relays must receive 120v AC power to function. The relay contacts can be used to switch either AC or DC power within the ratings of the contacts.
The relays do not have an output voltage. They contain 2 sets of form "C" dry contacts. The device being wired to the contacts needs to have its own power source."
The relays do not have an output voltage. They contain 2 sets of form "C" dry contacts. The device being wired to the contacts needs to have its own power source."
Sounds like you answered your own question. Yes these relays only work with 120V power which often goes out during a fire, which is why smoke alarms have a 9V battery backup and monitored panels also have a battery backup. If these relays were designed to control a monitored panel, it would say monitored panel. An external bell is not a monitored panel its an external bell. Do you honestly believe a relay that requires 120V power to operate would be approved to be used to monitor smoke alarms with a monitored panel? Not in my house it won't, but your free to do as you wish.
The relay is clearly for supplemental functions because it does not operate on battery backup. That does not mean it can not or should not be connected to a FACP (unless I am mising something obscure in the code). If installed in accordance with the NEC (seperation of Power Limited and Non Power Limited circuits etc) it can provide a supplemental function.
If local codes require 120 V detectors or a premise already has them and someone wishes to have them trip a FACP as a supplemental feature (non life safety just property protection etc) then why not.
Imagine you are not home and there is a fire and the 120 V detector goes into alarm and is sounding etc for minutes before a Low voltage detector trips the FACP. That time may be the difference between your house badly damaged or burning down.
I agree is should NEVER be relied upon for life safety but technically it never would since the detectors by themselves meet the life safety requirements.
In the end the local AHJ has to be consulted as to if he will permit it or not (code or not AHJ has final say).
It sounds simple, just add some additional protection. Nothing wrong with that, right? Well as it turns out it isn't that simple, at least in some cities and towns. Typical 120V smokes are ionization type, they react very quick to smoke but they also have lots of false alarms when you burn something on the stove. Most 12V monitored smokes are photo-electric type, slower to react but usually always correct. The burning pizza won't typically trigger these. Some locations even specify that all smokes on a monitored alarm need to be the photo-electric type for the reason that these towns don't want the fire department rushing to your house when you baked your pizza a bit too long. They think this is a waste of valuable resources.
This requirement isn't everywhere, but this is one reason you may NOT want to connect 120V to a monitored alarm, just for EXTRA protection. If your alarm isn't monitored it probably doesn't really matter. In this case there is probably not a reason not to do it, except for the false sense of security it may provide. Just make sure you use the right kind of 12V smokes as well.
Now, why isn't controlling 120V emergency lights with a 120V relay a problem? Because if the relay power goes out, chances are the lights wouldn't be working anyway.
I'm not a professional installer, but for my home I prefer to follow the all the rules. And these rules were not just created by some crazy person, they evolved over years and years from experience. They aren't perfect, but never try to out-think them unless you have a real good reason. When you really dig into them, you realize they weren't so crazy after all.
I am not sure using that relay is the way to go. If a detector has a relay built in to it that provides dry contact in alarm that is one thing. Trying to trip this off the trigger circuit between detectors is different. You dont know if this would exceed the limitations of the trigger circuit.
Just so you know Ano's theory of the ionizaion detectors is correct but I cant find in the code where it is prohibited. There are still tons of ionozation detectors in service that are connected to FACP and they are still sold for that purpose. I know of detectors still in service for over 25 years (yes permitted by code as their sensitivity ca be verified by a meter for the AHJ). Are Photoelectrics less prone to certain types of alarms? Yes. Is it code not to use only Photelectrics on a FACP? Not that I can find.
Again check with AHJ for specific local requirements.
