Aprilaire 8870 Power

[pgray007]

Checked it all out one more time and wiring looks perfect. I did find that I had JP5 on the M1-XSP set, and removed that, rebooted everything and... nothing.

On the 8811 I have the RX/TX Enabe RS-485 LEDs are lit all the time, and an occasional flicker on the TX DATA RS-232 which always correspondes to a flicker from RX DATA RS-485. M1-XSP blinks rapidly (I'd say 2x/second) and then stops for about 4s every now and again.

I've thought about trying to do some diagnostics with the 8811 but do not have any laptops with a serial port so not sure how to proceed with debugging.

Any other ideas, or how to debug this further? The only other nuance I can think of is that I have an Elk wireless expander on the same data line as the M1XSP, terminated at the wireless expander (it's last on the line). ElkRP can "see" both devices and update firmware/read wireless sensors, so I can't see how it could be a termination/communication problem on the M1 bus, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

So far my $500+ foray into automated HVAC has been a bust. Thanks for any additional suggestions!

 

[hult]

Checked it all out one more time and wiring looks perfect. I did find that I had JP5 on the M1-XSP set, and removed that, rebooted everything and... nothing.

On the 8811 I have the RX/TX Enabe RS-485 LEDs are lit all the time, and an occasional flicker on the TX DATA RS-232 which always correspondes to a flicker from RX DATA RS-485. M1-XSP blinks rapidly (I'd say 2x/second) and then stops for about 4s every now and again.

I've thought about trying to do some diagnostics with the 8811 but do not have any laptops with a serial port so not sure how to proceed with debugging.

Any other ideas, or how to debug this further? The only other nuance I can think of is that I have an Elk wireless expander on the same data line as the M1XSP, terminated at the wireless expander (it's last on the line). ElkRP can "see" both devices and update firmware/read wireless sensors, so I can't see how it could be a termination/communication problem on the M1 bus, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

So far my $500+ foray into automated HVAC has been a bust. Thanks for any additional suggestions!

Have you checked to see that both the M1-XSP are using the same baud rate? The 8870 can be set to either 19,200 or 9600. The M1-XSP docs I've seen unhelpfully don't actually specify what rate is used in Aprilaire mode --just says "The BAUD jumpers S1,S2, & S3 do not matter as the Aprilaire baud rate is preset internally". So how, pray tell, is the 8870 to know? Try switching the baud rate on the 8870 to whatever it isn't on now . There are only two possibilities.

If this doesn't do it, it would be time to find a computer with a serial port (even an IBM AT would be fine ;-) or invest in a usb-->serial converter.

9600, 8,n,1 or 19,200, 8,n,1

A command to inquire what is the thermostat temperature for Aprilaire #1 is:
SN1 TEMP?<CR>
Upon receipt of the command, Aprilaire will decode the command, formulate the response, and send back the following response if the temp is 72F
SN1 T=72F<CR>

The programming manual is here: http://www.aprilairecontractor.com/pdfs/8870FAQs.pdf

... Marc

 

[IVB]

FWIW, i haven't been able to get the multiple 8870's to work via the distro panel, but i haven't tried that hard. ONe worked fine, but oddly when i hook up the 2nd and go via the distro panel, nothing works.

First try with one, directly hooked up to a PC. Use a long-ass CAT5 cable to hook the 8811 directly to a desktop with the RJ45->DB9 adapters so you can use hyperterminal to check it out.

 

[hult]

FWIW, i haven't been able to get the multiple 8870's to work via the distro panel, but i haven't tried that hard. ONe worked fine, but oddly when i hook up the 2nd and go via the distro panel, nothing works.

The factory default RS-4xx address is the same for each 8870 (= #1 out of 64 ) so two 8870's new-out-of-the-box _will_ conflict unless you first change the address of one or t'other.

The factory default for the max number of devices on the network is 32 so the default value will work although Aprilaire recommends reducing this value to the actual number of tstats installed in order to minimize network response time.

... Marc

 

[clarbour]

I'm new to this forum and automation world but I can understand your fustration I went thru the confusion but now works great.
I presently have 3 of the 8870 and communicating thru the distribution panel 8818 and the 8811 protocol adapter.
I initially only had 2 and twist tied the communication wires together. When I added the 3rd I added in the 8818 distribution panel for in time I plan to add more 8870's. Plus I have a seperate power supply to just power up the 8870's seperate from the heating and cooling. Due to I have radiant floor heat with supplimental electric along with A/C and air filtering conditioning system I can shut the individual systems down and not bother the t/stats.
The 8870 can use the 24v transformer from the HVAC system I did initially then changed.
Besure that stand alone for each 8870 handles what it needs to do for heat A/C.
I have the baud rate at each 8870 is at 9600 baud, plus the address for each one is set 1,2,3 based on their location, plus also make sure you program on each 8870 how many 8870's on the network make sure this number is the same on all 8870.
When you make the changes and exit out of the menu system the 8870 should reboot itself restart and lock in your settings.
Make sure the dip switches of each 8870 is set correctly mine are all set at slave then 2 thru 4 set to your system. 3 of mine set to fossil 2 are set to single for all they control is that's zone radiant heat, and 1 8870 is set at multi for it controls the radiant floor for that zone the whole house A/C and as secondary back up is the whole house electric heat. Radiant floor heat is great but slow and I have the automation system drop the heat at night then in the morning turn it on to warm the floor and supplement the heat to take the chill in the air off with the electric heat.
Since I have one 8870 that does the A/C this also controls the fan, and I have create rules in the automation that I can at any 8870 turn the fan on or off manually without having to do any fancy wiring to each 8870.

As for the Elk side setup the jumpers per instructions for the M1XSP setup like on pg 5 for the Aprilaire and make sure to enroll the module. Since I have 3 8870 the M1XSP can only handle 2 directly so another reason I had to go to the 8818 panel.
In the ElkRP software under Automation then thermostats besure to name the areas for each t/stat that you have based on the ID you assigned at each 8870 example bedroom, living room etc.
I powered down the Elk then restarted made sure the M1XSP was enrolled. Then powered up the t/stats watched the lights on the 8811 and communication was fine then I played with some rules in automation to see if they all were communicating.
I have recently tried use the Hyper Terminal program thru my computers serial port and was able to communicate directly thru the 8811 protocol adapter and was able to confirm operation thru the 8811 and to each 8870. Plus hope to take advantage of a few more features in the 8870 t/stats
When you make a change on the 8870 temp or mode I get a quick flash of the network symbol indicating messaging is happening.
Hope this helps if I can be further help let me know.

 

[pgray007]

Thanks, all for your help. I think I may have a dead 8811 and am going to try replacing it. I get an odd light pattern about 80% of the time I power up the unit, and commands sent via hyperterm are not getting any response. I also tried connecting the 8811 to just one thermo with no luck. Hopefully a new 8811 will solve my problems. This has been way more frustrating than I thought, especially since debugging is so difficult.

 

[pgray007]

My 8811 woes continue. I got a new 8811 but did not replace the connector, so that appears to be the one thing I have not yet been able to verify. When I connect via hyperterminal I do not get any response to any SN command, despite the TX and RX lights on the 8811 briefly flashing.

I tried replacing the phone-type cable that goes between the 8811 and it's grey plug to no avail, and when I opened up the grey connector, I found that only 3 wires were connected to the DB9 side, red, yellow and green. Can anyone who is feeling adventerous open up their grey connector (just unscrew the two side screws and then you can pry off the connector with a screwdriver) and tell me if they have more than 3 wires connected?

Also, should the 8811 respond to an "SN?" command even with no thermostats connected? I am going directly to two 8870s (no distro panel) at the moment and would like to be able to eliminate the thermo wiring as a potential failure point by connecting the 8811 and testing it somehow without any thermos connected.

The thermos are operting fine as (extremely expensive) standalone units.

Thanks!

 

[IVB]

I don't think the 8811 will respond without an 8870 in the mix. If the wiring is run suitably, I'd try one thermo at a time first.

That's how I realized I screwed up the wiring on my 2nd 8870.

 

[IVB]

Didja notice that Sacedog just hooked his up to the M1 with no issues? I wonder if it's more forgiving than a PC, I may just get the M1XSP to check it out. I was going to switch as much as possible to the M1 anyhow as I'm trying to eliminate the need for a Moxa PCI serial expander in my CQC Master Server.

 

[Sacedog]

Didja notice that Sacedog just hooked his up to the M1 with no issues? I wonder if it's more forgiving than a PC, I may just get the M1XSP to check it out. I was going to switch as much as possible to the M1 anyhow as I'm trying to eliminate the need for a Moxa PCI serial expander in my CQC Master Server.

Yep. An hour of getting the ^%$&^#@) wire down the wall (I hate mid-wall blocks), and less than 10 minutes connecting it to the protocol adapter, M1XSP, and doing the programming. Assuming I don't have an issue with rule space when I get my system hooked up (this one was for my father-in-law), I will probably leave my 3 connected to the M1.

 

[pgray007]

Didja notice that Sacedog just hooked his up to the M1 with no issues? I wonder if it's more forgiving than a PC, I may just get the M1XSP to check it out. I was going to switch as much as possible to the M1 anyhow as I'm trying to eliminate the need for a Moxa PCI serial expander in my CQC Master Server.

I tried connecting to the M1XSP first, with no joy, so that brought me to the PC-based debugging. I'll go back to one thermo at a time. This is really killing me!

 

[magrann]

pgray,

I will try to check my connections on the 8811 later today.

 

[IVB]

Well, I just bought an M1XSP (and 2 more damn zWave things, since Martin does that Flat Shipping Fee, god I hate that cuz "it just makes sense to buy more"!).

I'll plug that in and report back as well.

 

[robolo]

I recently connected my 8870 to 8811 to ELK and got everything worked once I corrected some wiring issues on the 8870. Initially I did not include the wiring from furnace "C" to 8870 "C" and 8870 "R" to 8870 "RC" ? These are shown as a dashed line on page 16 of the installation manual. Once I added those connections everything worked. Have you included those wires?

 

[developer]

My 8811 woes continue. I got a new 8811 but did not replace the connector, so that appears to be the one thing I have not yet been able to verify. When I connect via hyperterminal I do not get any response to any SN command, despite the TX and RX lights on the 8811 briefly flashing.

I tried replacing the phone-type cable that goes between the 8811 and it's grey plug to no avail, and when I opened up the grey connector, I found that only 3 wires were connected to the DB9 side, red, yellow and green. Can anyone who is feeling adventerous open up their grey connector (just unscrew the two side screws and then you can pry off the connector with a screwdriver) and tell me if they have more than 3 wires connected?

Also, should the 8811 respond to an "SN?" command even with no thermostats connected? I am going directly to two 8870s (no distro panel) at the moment and would like to be able to eliminate the thermo wiring as a potential failure point by connecting the 8811 and testing it somehow without any thermos connected.

The thermos are operting fine as (extremely expensive) standalone units.

Thanks!

You can try piggybacking the second 8870 to the first, but I do recall a technote somewhere that mentioned changing a jumper in the 8811 when wiring directly to the thermostats without the distribution panel. This may be a termination issue on the 485 side. You really should buy a panel. It does make life much easier, and for what it is, it's relatively inexpensive.

The 8811 is a protocol adapter (brandname "Proverter" which is private-labeled by Aprilaire) - it just translates electrical signal protocol. The SN? and other commands are actual data communications responded to by the thermostats themselves, meaning that the 8811 does not talk other than showing its status via the LEDs. Only the thermostats "talk."

If you are going to play with the thermostat commands, make sure to get the latest version of the command manual. There are several manuals floating around, many of which are incomplete. I think there's one in another thread, but I haven't seen it yet.

If the 8811 gets fouled, you will have to bounce it (power down & up).

Don't open your plugs. 3 wires is enough for RS-232 from your PC. When you open hyperterminal to play, you may have to bounce the 8811, especially if you have the wrong baud rate or data format set. If the driver on your PC is set to initiate communications at something the 8811 doesn't understand, it could get fouled. Look for gibberish on the hyperterminal screen as an indication that the settings are wrong. Also remember that the devices use the id # in timing their responses. They don't multiplex well, so talk to them 1 at a time, or code very carefully if you get to that point. Adding delays and buffers may help.

Remember, you are not locked into using the 8811. There are many other companies out there making protocol converters.

Someone mentioned the 8825 somewhere. Stay away from the 8825. It is an excellent and attractive appliance concept which is currently an expensive, buggy, java & html device which Aprilaire hasn't had a firmware update for in over 18 months, and our calls, emails and voice mails to the head of support; Santino Piazza go unanswered when the topic is 8825. YMMV.

Use the 8811 and canned automation software, or have fun and write your own. We were using 8825s to get big projects off the ground, but Aprilaire has next to 0 support for it other than what it is limited to doing right now (i.e. can't display multiple sensors, time period bugs, java hangs, etc). If you ask them, they will tell you the product is alive, but in reality, that doesn't seem to be the case, so save your $.

I write a lot of direct communications code to speak with 8870s, which are in contrast, very good, dependable devices. If anyone needs coding help, just PM me.

One last suggestion from the field... pay attention to how you run the wires for your HVAC equipment and your communications into the back of an 8870. Things can get tight... relays get in the way, etc. You can damage it, or it may not seat properly, or worse... it will appear to seat and then partially pull away from the socket board.