Adding 110v smokes into HA

Does anyone know a reliable online store where the GE 350 and 350CX can be purchased? I've searched and searched, but the only places that turn up don't have great reviews.

Thanks,
Sean.
 
I was going to go with the GE ones, but they got nixed by the wife for cheaper ones. I had asked Automated Outlet if they had them and they said they would consider stocking them, not sure if they did.
 
Speaking of the GE350CX... does it still activate it's relay when the power is out? I installed a Kidde SM120X and was a bit dissapointed, but not completely surprised, that the relay didnt activate when the power was out. Likewise, when the power was out, the SM120X could not trigger the other alarms. Since the GE350X has it's own battery (unlike the SM120X) I'd think it could.
 
dBeau said:
Speaking of the GE350CX... does it still activate it's relay when the power is out? I installed a Kidde SM120X and was a bit dissapointed, but not completely surprised, that the relay didnt activate when the power was out. Likewise, when the power was out, the SM120X could not trigger the other alarms. Since the GE350X has it's own battery (unlike the SM120X) I'd think it could.
Click to expand...
I believe post number nine of this thread answers your question. ;)
 
dBeau said:
Speaking of the GE350CX... does it still activate it's relay when the power is out? I installed a Kidde SM120X and was a bit dissapointed, but not completely surprised, that the relay didnt activate when the power was out. Likewise, when the power was out, the SM120X could not trigger the other alarms. Since the GE350X has it's own battery (unlike the SM120X) I'd think it could.
Click to expand...

OK, I was all ready to buy the GE detectors, but now I've been reading that you should have a combination of ionization and photoelectric detectors. I've been searching, but I can't find a GE ionization detector that will work with the 350 series. Is there one that I'm missing? How about another brand that meets all these requirements:

120V
Interconnect 7 (8 if I add one more) detectors
Relay to connect to my elk that functions both with and without AC power
Combination of photoelectric and ionization detectors

It looks like none of the BRK, Kidde, or Firex relays work without AC. I guess Gentex does, but I don't see any ionization detectors from them.

Also, I'd like to work at least one CO detector into the mix, but it doesn't look like GE has an integrated smoke/CO detector. I'm leaning towards using all 350s with one 350CX for the relay, and then having a seperate GE 240 CO detector hooked up to my ELK.

I didn't do my homework on smokes ahead of time. My electrician installed Kidde detectors and a SM120X, but I didn't know the SM120X didn't work without AC power.

Thanks,
Sean.
 
redondo_se said:
dBeau said:
Speaking of the GE350CX... does it still activate it's relay when the power is out? I installed a Kidde SM120X and was a bit dissapointed, but not completely surprised, that the relay didnt activate when the power was out. Likewise, when the power was out, the SM120X could not trigger the other alarms. Since the GE350X has it's own battery (unlike the SM120X) I'd think it could.
Click to expand...

OK, I was all ready to buy the GE detectors, but now I've been reading that you should have a combination of ionization and photoelectric detectors. I've been searching, but I can't find a GE ionization detector that will work with the 350 series. Is there one that I'm missing? How about another brand that meets all these requirements:

120V
Interconnect 7 (8 if I add one more) detectors
Relay to connect to my elk that functions both with and without AC power
Combination of photoelectric and ionization detectors

It looks like none of the BRK, Kidde, or Firex relays work without AC. I guess Gentex does, but I don't see any ionization detectors from them.

Also, I'd like to work at least one CO detector into the mix, but it doesn't look like GE has an integrated smoke/CO detector. I'm leaning towards using all 350s with one 350CX for the relay, and then having a seperate GE 240 CO detector hooked up to my ELK.

I didn't do my homework on smokes ahead of time. My electrician installed Kidde detectors and a SM120X, but I didn't know the SM120X didn't work without AC power.

Thanks,
Sean.
Click to expand...

Generally it works like this. 120V smokes, required by code to be hooked together are ionization type, again as required by code. The goal is early detection of a fire. In many, if not most areas, a "monitored" alarm, like an Elk, prohibits the use of ionization alarms, and instead typically required photoelectric smokes, since these type of alarms are designed to reduce false alarms. For this reason, if you plan on having your ELK monitored, you shouldn't, and without breaking code can't, connect 120V smokes to a monitored alarm. The safest, legal, and best way is to run both and don't connect anything to anything else if it wasn't designed for it. Read the fine print on those relays you are connecting to the 120V smokes, and you will likely see a warning that the relay is not to be used with a monitored alarm. The relay is designed to be hooked to an electric magnet that keeps the fire doors of a building open. Smoke trips the relay, and it closes the door. Battery backup isn't important, because if the power goes off, the door closes anyway. The relay can also be used for external lighting or bells, both of which won't work if the power is out.

If your alarm isn't monitored, or if you live in an area that doesn't require photoelectric monitored alarms, you can do as you wish, but its still not a great idea. Why? Elk smokes wired correctly monitor the wiring. 120V smokes and a relay don't. So before you even consider this, make sure the 120V relay is UL approved for use to signal to another alarm. Then make sure the code in your area allows an ionization alarm to be connected to a monitored alarm.
 
Honestly I'm slowly starting to think wireless battery operated smokes are the way to go.

THe builder is putting in the code required smokes, i can then add a few wireless photoelectric ones, so messing with relays, etc.

Also from what i understand the wireless ones will send out signals if batt is low etc.

Considering there hardwired ones are still there as well I'm not worried about the reliability of the wireless ones since there is a backup.
 
ano - that's the best explanation I've read yet on handling of the smokes, and actually gives clarity to what I'm going to do as I finish that part up... Makes sense too - I don't want the monitoring company getting called every time my wife's bunt cake overflows the pan - but if I'm asleep in the house, I want the first possible detection of a problem. For me, the monitored part isn't code, but is in case there's a problem when nobody's home to get dispatch. It may not happen as fast, but lives aren't at risk - only valuables (replaceables).
 
ano said:
Generally it works like this. 120V smokes, required by code to be hooked together are ionization type, again as required by code. The goal is early detection of a fire. In many, if not most areas, a "monitored" alarm, like an Elk, prohibits the use of ionization alarms, and instead typically required photoelectric smokes, since these type of alarms are designed to reduce false alarms. For this reason, if you plan on having your ELK monitored, you shouldn't, and without breaking code can't, connect 120V smokes to a monitored alarm. The safest, legal, and best way is to run both and don't connect anything to anything else if it wasn't designed for it. Read the fine print on those relays you are connecting to the 120V smokes, and you will likely see a warning that the relay is not to be used with a monitored alarm. The relay is designed to be hooked to an electric magnet that keeps the fire doors of a building open. Smoke trips the relay, and it closes the door. Battery backup isn't important, because if the power goes off, the door closes anyway. The relay can also be used for external lighting or bells, both of which won't work if the power is out.

If your alarm isn't monitored, or if you live in an area that doesn't require photoelectric monitored alarms, you can do as you wish, but its still not a great idea. Why? Elk smokes wired correctly monitor the wiring. 120V smokes and a relay don't. So before you even consider this, make sure the 120V relay is UL approved for use to signal to another alarm. Then make sure the code in your area allows an ionization alarm to be connected to a monitored alarm.
Click to expand...
Ano, I am sorry , but I just cannot allow your erroneous statements to remain here without correcting them. Your first statement about 120V smokes required by code to be the ionization type is totally wrong. The National Fire Alarm Code (NFPA 72) clearly allows the use of either ionization or photoelectric. The selection is up to the system designer. Second, the NFAC does not prohibit the use of ionization type.

Maybe you are confusing a local code with the national code. Local codes may vary in their requirements. If this is the case, please state which local code makes these requirements.

Third, allow me to quote sections of the NFAC which pertain directly to residential fire alarm systems and this issue directly.

Section 11.3.3 "Supplementary functions, including the extension of an alarm beyond the residential occupancy, shall be permitted and shall not interfere with the performance requirements of this chapter. The supplementary functions described in 11.3.3 can include the connection to a remote supervising station, a central station or to another remote monitoring location."

Section 11.7.6.7 "Installation that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
 
Do the different AC smoke suppliers use different methods to interconnect the units?

If i have First Alert 3 wire AC ionization smokes. Can i put a GE 350 with relay on the same line and would it trigger with the others? This woudl be ideal since i can just loops a wire from the ELK to that relay.
 
MavRic,
I think all the units just put 120V on the interconnect wire.
One thing to look into might be the Kidde SM120X. It is a relay that hooks up the 120v interconnect. I just ordered one on ebay for $20 shipped. I figured in my case this was a better deal as I have a 120V smoke a few feet from my alarm panel that I can easily tie into
 
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