A message from Steve at Smarthome.

[SteveL]

A seperate question is what is the future of the PLC? I am not clear on this, but it seems like it is being abandoned for the PLM? I WOULD have rewritten all my code not using the SDM, but to find it would have only been obsoleted again by having to support the PLM instead was too much of a risk for my limited development resources. This was only reinforced when I saw HomeSeer abandon development for the PLC. Why would they have done that if it is all sunshine and rainbows? I don't have a fraction of the resources they do...

I have not read the Developer forums in a while do to the lack of activity and answeres on there, but maybe that has changed and I will go see if there is anything new on there.

Also, this is the little issue that took me from dissappointed to UNHAPPY:
"Quick Reference Guide for Smarthome Device Manager for INSTEON
(matches alpha-release - 1.10 - 2005-08-25); updated 2005-12-12 - Clarified Fast ON Command"

The current SDM is 3.08 from Dec 2006... It is 2009 and the 1 page guide to the SDM is still from 2005. Couldn't you all at least update that 1 page of docs so it at least matches the current SDM? I have requested this several times on the forums to no avail.


Thanks for providing a voice on these boards though and I still have fantasies about loving Insteon again and it is a more robust protocol than ZWave and I like the extra options it provides.

Vaughn

ver0776,

You make some great points and I will see what I can do to provide the information.

The PLC is not abandon but we would like to see our partners and developers work to the PLM engine.

We will continue to sell it until the demand is not there. There are still people that have systems that use it and we want to be able to provide it if the need is there. There isn't any on going development at SH on the PLC, but it is still shipping.

SteveL

 

[WayneW]

The PLC is not abandon but we would like to see our partners and developers work to the PLM engine.

We will continue to sell it until the demand is not there. There are still people that have systems that use it and we want to be able to provide it if the need is there. There isn't any on going development at SH on the PLC, but it is still shipping.

Please explain how "abandoned" is different from "discontinued'?
http://www.smarthome.com/2414S/PowerLinc-I...r-Serial/p.aspx --> "Product Discontinued: Only Available While Supplies Last!"
Since there is no "add to cart" button, it appears to be abandoned. So much for those wanting to use Elk XSP.

 

[SteveL]

The PLC is not abandon but we would like to see our partners and developers work to the PLM engine.

We will continue to sell it until the demand is not there. There are still people that have systems that use it and we want to be able to provide it if the need is there. There isn't any on going development at SH on the PLC, but it is still shipping.

Please explain how "abandoned" is different from "discontinued'?
http://www.smarthome.com/2414S/PowerLinc-I...r-Serial/p.aspx --> "Product Discontinued: Only Available While Supplies Last!"
Since there is no "add to cart" button, it appears to be abandoned. So much for those wanting to use Elk XSP.

I was referring to the USB PLC. http://www.smarthome.com/2414U/PowerLinc-I...n-Device/p.aspx
ELK has a solution for the XSP with the PLM. If there is someone who wants and needs a PLC we can make it available. If someone is browsing the website and looking for a serial interface we want to discourage the PLC and point them to the PLM. The USB version of the PLC is still available.

SteveL

 

[WayneW]

The PLC is not abandon but we would like to see our partners and developers work to the PLM engine.

We will continue to sell it until the demand is not there. There are still people that have systems that use it and we want to be able to provide it if the need is there. There isn't any on going development at SH on the PLC, but it is still shipping.

Please explain how "abandoned" is different from "discontinued'?
http://www.smarthome.com/2414S/PowerLinc-I...r-Serial/p.aspx --> "Product Discontinued: Only Available While Supplies Last!"
Since there is no "add to cart" button, it appears to be abandoned. So much for those wanting to use Elk XSP.

I was referring to the USB PLC. http://www.smarthome.com/2414U/PowerLinc-I...n-Device/p.aspx
ELK has a solution for the XSP with the PLM. If there is someone who wants and needs a PLC we can make it available. If someone is browsing the website and looking for a serial interface we want to discourage the PLC and point them to the PLM. The USB version of the PLC is still available.

So is there an exchange program for us to upgrade/exchange our abandoned 2414S and 2414U (with the painful SDM) interfaces and get the currently supported 2412S? Or is this just another cost of being an early adopter? Similar to when we got to exchange our SignaLincs for AccessPoints at reduced cost?

 

[jhdale]

The USB PLC is still being made but the SDM is still buggy (even ignoring the poor state of the documentation).

The SDM takes a long time to start up, sometimes fails to start up, doesn't support i2, is slow compared to the serial devices. Personally I get wrong addresses from the PLC when I restart it (not resolved by tech support despite my efforts), and it closes with a complaint about cross-threading when called from my single-threaded app. Smarthome has said in the past it would be redesigned which seemed promising. "We will continue to sell it until the demand is not there" sounds like you will let people continue to move into a dead end but there's basically no hope for future development and, without i2 support, it's just a matter of time before it gets discontinued as useless.

In principle it should be a great development platform, especially for hobbyists, but that's clearly not a priority to support.

I've written code for both the PLC and PLM. The PLM is a real pain to write for.

 

[ver0776]

I've written code for both the PLC and PLM. The PLM is a real pain to write for.

Oh sadness, I kinda assumed this, but did not want to know it was true. For vCrib to stay current and support Insteon I have to write a PLM interface. I was contemplating ordering one today. When you say it is a pain, do you mean because it does not have an API like the SDM, or are you saying it is even harder the than PLC writing native support?

Does you PLM code work? Interested in helping out vCrib? vCrib is sooo easy to code for, it takes a couple hours to write a complete interface to vCrib, but will probably take me months to code a PLM interface. So I am obviously interested in an source code or help I can get to reduce coding time.

Zwave support was coded by a user using my new API, of couse ZWave has its own SDK, so the project was a snap... It just kills me to spend 200 hours writing an interface to a protocol I already support and double so knowing many others have already done it.

Personally I think companies should have an API for everything. Code it once and everyone works the same with minimal effort. To make person after person write code for a product that has experts that could just wrap their own code and be done, is just wrong.

Vaughn

 

[SteveL]

The PLC is not abandon but we would like to see our partners and developers work to the PLM engine.

We will continue to sell it until the demand is not there. There are still people that have systems that use it and we want to be able to provide it if the need is there. There isn't any on going development at SH on the PLC, but it is still shipping.

Please explain how "abandoned" is different from "discontinued'?
http://www.smarthome.com/2414S/PowerLinc-I...r-Serial/p.aspx --> "Product Discontinued: Only Available While Supplies Last!"
Since there is no "add to cart" button, it appears to be abandoned. So much for those wanting to use Elk XSP.

I was referring to the USB PLC. http://www.smarthome.com/2414U/PowerLinc-I...n-Device/p.aspx
ELK has a solution for the XSP with the PLM. If there is someone who wants and needs a PLC we can make it available. If someone is browsing the website and looking for a serial interface we want to discourage the PLC and point them to the PLM. The USB version of the PLC is still available.

So is there an exchange program for us to upgrade/exchange our abandoned 2414S and 2414U (with the painful SDM) interfaces and get the currently supported 2412S? Or is this just another cost of being an early adopter? Similar to when we got to exchange our SignaLincs for AccessPoints at reduced cost?

I believe there was a program for that 2 years ago when the PLM first came out. We had the same program for Houselinc 2 and as you mentioned the Access Points. The 2414U is still available. There are two things going on here, one is for the retail customer who wants a PLC which we have available. The second is for developers who want to exchange their PLC for a PLM. The developer side of the conversation should be held on the developer forum. If a retail customer needs a USB PLC we will continue to sell them for some time. If you need to replace your serial PLC for another serial PLC than send me an email and I will see what I can do to help.

SteveL

 

[jhdale]

I've written code for both the PLC and PLM. The PLM is a real pain to write for.

Oh sadness, I kinda assumed this, but did not want to know it was true. For vCrib to stay current and support Insteon I have to write a PLM interface. I was contemplating ordering one today. When you say it is a pain, do you mean because it does not have an API like the SDM, or are you saying it is even harder the than PLC writing native support?

Because it doesn't have an API. Also because I am writing in VB2005 and there are multithreading issues. I don't want to derail this generally useful thread, so I will refer you to discussion http://efundies.com/forum/YaBB.pl?board=InsteonSoftware and send you a PM. But for the record I am willing to share everything I know and have figured out.

 

[WayneW]

I've written code for both the PLC and PLM. The PLM is a real pain to write for.

I thought the PLM was supposed to be easy to write code for? I heard people complaining about the pain of writing for and using the PLC for years (such as HomeSeer).

 

[mustangcoupe]

So is there an exchange program for us to upgrade/exchange our abandoned 2414S and 2414U (with the painful SDM) interfaces and get the currently supported 2412S? Or is this just another cost of being an early adopter? Similar to when we got to exchange our SignaLincs for AccessPoints at reduced cost?

Im not sure I'd consider this a cost of being an early adopter Wayne, almost every company discontinues products now or again, and comes out with a better device. If I thought of it your way I would be mad at all computer manufacturers that when wireless came out and I got an 802.11A card it is no longer supported and they want me to buy a 802.11N card.

I's the cost of being a consumer.

 

[SteveL]

I've written code for both the PLC and PLM. The PLM is a real pain to write for.

I thought the PLM was supposed to be easy to write code for? I heard people complaining about the pain of writing for and using the PLC for years (such as HomeSeer).

The PLM can be very easy, and there are as many people that developed to the PLC the didn't have the problems as those that have. Based on what you are trying to do with it could be challenging. For other applications it is straight forward. Because HomeSeer had problems with there plug-in does not mean that an applicvation could not be written for it. Some were better with it that others. Was it perfect, No. Were people sucessful with it yes.

SteveL

 

[WayneW]

So is there an exchange program for us to upgrade/exchange our abandoned 2414S and 2414U (with the painful SDM) interfaces and get the currently supported 2412S? Or is this just another cost of being an early adopter? Similar to when we got to exchange our SignaLincs for AccessPoints at reduced cost?

I believe there was a program for that 2 years ago when the PLM first came out. We had the same program for Houselinc 2 and as you mentioned the Access Points.

Sorry, but I have never heard of any stand-alone PLC to PLM upgrade program. I have heard of the HouseLinc 2 upgrade and its proprietary USB PLM (HouseLinc 1 was late and never worth much, so I never bought it... UPstart is free, a good example to follow). But what about those of us that bought PLCs when they were the only thing available? Now the PLCs and/or the SDM are essentially orphans, so Elk and PowerHome aren't doing any/much enhancements or bug fixes on their side and SH hasn't made SDM fixes in years. So we either have to live with the frustration of a product that nobody wants to fix or we have to spend more of our own money to buy this years model? Do you do maintenance on your car or buy a new model every year and throw the old one away?

As for the PLM coming out two years ago, that may be technically true (not sure), but I don't know of anybody that supported it then (not even SH's HouseLinc), other than maybe the ISY. PowerHome supported the PLM in November 2008 (or around there, IIRC) and Elk XSP supported the PLM in January of 2009 (one month ago). So now that the PLM is supposedly ready for prime-time, how about an upgrade process for users?

 

[ver0776]

Vaughn (me =) is happy for the moment and is ordering a PLM. Jdale's info and activity on other forums alone was enough to give me the confidence to try to do this. Knowing someone is out there that cares enough to help and share info makes a big difference.

So I will let this thread get back on track, but if not for this thread, I may not have come across any of this information. So thanks SteveL and JDale!

My PLC code functions really well and I have no problems as long as you are not wanting to clean up links... So I can support both the PLM and PLC and will just encourage new users to get the PLM.

Vaughn

 

[WayneW]

So is there an exchange program for us to upgrade/exchange our abandoned 2414S and 2414U (with the painful SDM) interfaces and get the currently supported 2412S? Or is this just another cost of being an early adopter? Similar to when we got to exchange our SignaLincs for AccessPoints at reduced cost?

Im not sure I'd consider this a cost of being an early adopter Wayne, almost every company discontinues products now or again, and comes out with a better device. If I thought of it your way I would be mad at all computer manufacturers that when wireless came out and I got an 802.11A card it is no longer supported and they want me to buy a 802.11N card.

I's the cost of being a consumer.

I think there is a difference between fully mature, standardized products and early, buggy, never finished products. When your 802.11a card was purchased, it should have complied with a standard and given you many years of service. When a new standard comes alone, you have the option to upgrade or keep using what works. Same could be said for motherboards with ISA slots, etc. And when you bought an 802.11a card or an ISA motherboard, you knew that EVENTUALLY something better would come along. But the PLC and SDM are only 3-4 years old, were never really finished/stable and are already quietly abandoned. So, as a customer service gesture to those that have felt the growing pains of Insteon, it would be a good customer relations move to offer some sort of upgrade program, IMHO.

 

[SteveL]

So is there an exchange program for us to upgrade/exchange our abandoned 2414S and 2414U (with the painful SDM) interfaces and get the currently supported 2412S? Or is this just another cost of being an early adopter? Similar to when we got to exchange our SignaLincs for AccessPoints at reduced cost?

I believe there was a program for that 2 years ago when the PLM first came out. We had the same program for Houselinc 2 and as you mentioned the Access Points.

Sorry, but I have never heard of any stand-alone PLC to PLM upgrade program. I have heard of the HouseLinc 2 upgrade and its proprietary USB PLM (HouseLinc 1 was late and never worth much, so I never bought it... UPstart is free, a good example to follow). But what about those of us that bought PLCs when they were the only thing available? Now the PLCs and/or the SDM are essentially orphans, so Elk and PowerHome aren't doing any/much enhancements or bug fixes on their side and SH hasn't made SDM fixes in years. So we either have to live with the frustration of a product that nobody wants to fix or we have to spend more of our own money to buy this years model? Do you do maintenance on your car or buy a new model every year and throw the old one away?

As for the PLM coming out two years ago, that may be technically true (not sure), but I don't know of anybody that supported it then (not even SH's HouseLinc), other than maybe the ISY. PowerHome supported the PLM in November 2008 (or around there, IIRC) and Elk XSP supported the PLM in January of 2009 (one month ago). So now that the PLM is supposedly ready for prime-time, how about an upgrade process for users?

If I have a PLC running on my ELK with the XSP then why would I need to change that to a PLM when the result is the same? If ELK said that they were pushing a mandatory update out to all XSP serial interface units rendering them inoperable with the PLC then I would agree. If you are effected by this then contact me and as I have stated before I will do what I can to help.

SteveL