Adding 110v smokes into HA

PaulD

Active Member
I had expected to use low voltage smokes in my new house connected to my Omni Pro II. I just realized that local codes will require 110v smokes. None of the info I have for wiring up stuff to my Omni Pro II covers a 110v smoke. All the info is geared toward 2 or 4 wire low voltage units
Some of the 110v smokes I have looked at include form A and/or C relays. However, I am assuming they may not trigger if power is off and it is operating on backup battery.
So.....how are 110v smokes supposed to be tied into my system so they will be both safe and legal? All my walls are still open so I can still run any wire I need to.
 
If it weren't 10p at night, I'd try my GE ESL 350 CC smokes and see if they trip the relay while on battery...but I'd bet they do.

either way, they're what I'd commend....110v, battery backup, tandem line, form A and C relays. If you're not looking for a zone fire indication (as in, "which" fire alarm went off), but just a general indication, then you can use standard/cheap smokes for all but 1, and use the GE ESL 350 CX which trips its relay off the tandem line.
 
I have already looked at the GE 350 units but I could not find any info that confirmed if the relays did or did not function when on battery. I did note that the 350CC relays are independent from the tandem setup while the 350CX are tied to the tandem. I read that to mean that the CX relays trigger if any unit on the tandem is set off while the CC relays only trigger is that specific unit is set off.
The 350 units look good to me if I can rely on the relays operating when power is off. I would be interested in knowing the answer if someone has a chance to test that situation.
 
Relays may be a moot point. My wife has discovered the "Silhouette" by Kidde and is pushing for this new design. It is recessed into a gang box and only protrudes about 1/2 inch from ceiling thus it is very low profile compared to a normal unit. From the info I have found, it appears to use the normal 110 x 3 wire setup and does not appear to have any relays. However, it does have a lithium recharagble battery in it that stays recharged via line power.
If I go this route (WAF), I am thinking I will need to drop another unit such as the GE 350CX into the tandem somewhere so the 350CX can act a a trigger if any alarm on the tandem is activated. Has anyone use the 350CX for this type of role before? If this will not work, what other options do I have?
 
How do the pros interconnects these GE350 smokes to all trigeer? Do they use LV wiring? If this is the case how do they get around have the LV wiring and HV wiring in the same box? Perhaps they are using insualted sheathing like the ALC switches.

Trying to figure out what to do with the next house as well.. I belive the building is proposed 110v smokes, but no idea if they are interconnected. If they are all i would need is a single connect from the 'net' to the ELK. I don't particularly care which 'zone' is trigeer. If they go off i will run around like a madman to find the smoke anyway...if i'm fast i'm positive i can check all rooms in the house within 1 minutes. Seems little benefit to monitor individual smokes...
 
How do the pros interconnects these GE350 smokes to all trigeer? Do they use LV wiring? If this is the case how do they get around have the LV wiring and HV wiring in the same box? Perhaps they are using insualted sheathing like the ALC switches.

Trying to figure out what to do with the next house as well.. I belive the building is proposed 110v smokes, but no idea if they are interconnected. If they are all i would need is a single connect from the 'net' to the ELK. I don't particularly care which 'zone' is trigeer. If they go off i will run around like a madman to find the smoke anyway...if i'm fast i'm positive i can check all rooms in the house within 1 minutes. Seems little benefit to monitor individual smokes...

The interconnects is just another wire in the HV bundle...it's 3 wires, black, white, red, and ground. Red is the interconnect.

The plug for the GE smokes combines all of those together, and the wires coming off of the plug don't appear any different for the ones that connect to the LV wires...so I don't know how they got away with that. For my part, i had the LV wire hanging down in every smoke box, and the inspector didn't care. *shrug* different areas, different enfocements, though...

PaulD, you could totally do the one 350CX to monitor all of them, assuming that the 110v ones you're getting are interconnected (which I'd guess by law they have to be). I know many people on the forums have mentioned doing that. One limitation I know of is the 350cx says that the total interconnected smokes can't exceed 10. Maybe that's a common limitation of all smokes, but just be aware.

Unless you house is really really big, it is probably overkill to use all 350CC's....but then, overkill is my HA mantra. :) There are a couple nice benefits (though it's a question if they offset the cost). One is that they 350's are just a better overall smoke alarm than I would have gotten stock from the builder. Of course, you can probably get really good smokes and still not pay as much as a 350, so that's kinda moot. Another benefit is that I'll have redundant indication of a fire, because I have all 350CC's and 1 CX....so anywhere the fire is detected, that CC will go off, as well as the CX, so 2 indications. At the same time, with some simple logic, I can still always determine where the problem is (if a CX and CC are going off, it's at the CC. If just the CX, then it's there). Finally, and this is somewhat minor, but there's also the issue of false alarms. Our smokes have only gone off once since we've moved in, and there was never any smoke. Turns out that the wife got the shower too steamed, and when she opened the door, the steam enveloped the smoke and set it off. But if we didn't know which one it was, and thus able to figure it out, then I would have run to every smoke, and still not found any smoke, and then be left wondering.

So ya, it cost a lot more than it would have if I'd only gone with 1 CX....but the way I look at it, someday if one of those things go off at 3am, and I jump out of bed, then it'd be handy to be able to glance at one of the touchscreens to see where the offender is, especially if there's no visible smoke where I am. CQC can handle all the details of waking up the touchscreens, bringing up the floor displays and showing where it is, and even announcing over whole-house which smoke it is.
 
I have already looked at the GE 350 units but I could not find any info that confirmed if the relays did or did not function when on battery. I did note that the 350CC relays are independent from the tandem setup while the 350CX are tied to the tandem. I read that to mean that the CX relays trigger if any unit on the tandem is set off while the CC relays only trigger is that specific unit is set off.
The 350 units look good to me if I can rely on the relays operating when power is off. I would be interested in knowing the answer if someone has a chance to test that situation.

I know this is a bit late, but I finally got around to testing this (I've been wondering about it myself). I have a GE 350CX connected to my alarm panel and a few minutes ago I called my alarm company and put the system on test, turned off the breaker to the smokes, then lit a paper towel on fire to set off one of the detectors (not the 350CX). They did all sound (of course) and the relay did trip and notify the panel. When I called the central station to take the panel off of test they did confirm that they received the signal. The 350CX's relay definitely works on battery power and I would assume the 350CC works as well, but I don't have a 350CC to test.

Brett
 
A little off topic: Does anyone know if the GE 350CX will work in a chain of Kidde brand detectors?
 
I am absolutely almost certain that the tandem line is standard (but don't quote me on that!). :) I know one thing that does vary from detector to detector is how many smokes can SHARE the tandem line, however. The GE's are limited to 10. Has to do with some voltage drop thingy.
 
They "get away" with running the signal wire and the 110V in the same bundle because they are all treated as high voltage. The signal on the red wire is 9V (at least in most cases) with respect to neutral (white wire) when in alarm. But there is no isolation and direct connection to low voltage circuits is not expected or allowed. If the white wire becomes disconnected it and the red wire could both have 110V on them. The relay in the 350CX provides the safety isolation.

Mixing the 350CX with other brands that use a 9 V backup battery will probably work but may technically not be allowed as it has not been tested with all the other possible brands. Maybe this is in the fine print somewhere but I am not sure of this.

Here is some information on a DIY solution that explains how this works. This is not an "approved" method so although it seems like it would work well enough I can not actually recommend it (even though I may do it myself). Do this at your own risk, YMMV, etc. :)

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/smoke_det.htm
 
Is AC Interconnected smoke detectors 'standard' for new homes these days? I am trying to figure out what my builder is likely to provide.

If i can just tap into the interconnect and hook the whole thing into ELK that zone thats good enough for me..don't need to know exactly where the fire is.
 
Is AC Interconnected smoke detectors 'standard' for new homes these days? I am trying to figure out what my builder is likely to provide.

If i can just tap into the interconnect and hook the whole thing into ELK that zone thats good enough for me..don't need to know exactly where the fire is.
Different jurisdictions seem to have different expectations. In most municipalities, you will find AC interconnected smoke detectors with 9V battery backup for each unit. However there are limits to the number of smoke detectors in the line. If you are building even a modest sized home, I would urge consultation with a professional. I think it is ok to DIY most things, but fire safety cannot be done too carefully. If you are thinking of integrating with an Elk system, you might use low voltage smoke detectors from the beginning. It's a more elegant solution to use the Elk as an intelligent fire alarm panel. Keep in mind that if you use your Elk as the fire alarm panel, then you will want fire rated cable to keypads, speakers/sirens, and smokes. Plus you will probably need an auxillary power supply. It this is too elaborate, then specify all GE 350 series smoke detectors for the conventional installation. This way you can connect your Elk via a GE350CX. Good luck.
 
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