Insteon with multiple main panels?

L

lonebrave

Member
I'm about to start a home automation project in a home with nothing already automated. The hosue is approximately 4900 finished square feet. My plan is to use Insteon for all the switches/dimmers. The house has two 200Amp main panels with no sub-panels. I'll be installing an ISY 994i IR/Pro to do all the programming and complex stuff. From what I've mapped out, I'll have 60-70 devices...some combination of SwitchLinc switches and dimmers (mostly 600W, but a few 1000W), FanLincs, Keypad switches or dimmers, and I/O Lincs. My plan is to install a SignaLinc on each panel.
 
Do I need to worry about getting the Insteon signals between panels? Will signals be ok since the majority of devices will be dual band? Will the signals feed between the panels on the same phases? Anything specific I need to be concerned/cautious about with multiple main panels?
 
Should be fine.  I have multiple panels, do not even have my phases bridged, have no dual-band devices (except 1 access point), and my reliability is still close to perfect on all but a few devices, which work most of the time.
 
I'm not an Insteon user, but there are plenty of others on here that are... that said, the strength of Insteon is in its dual band capabilities; as long as you have enough devices to see each other and act as repeaters, I highly doubt you'll even need the SignaLinc - the devices should handle the bridging just fine using the RF.
 
If the two panels are near each other and feeding off the same meter, then I would imagine that anything that needs to pass from one leg to the other will be able to do so from either panel - meaning phases 1/2 in one panel are the exact same as phases 1/2 in the other panel - so instead of a signal having to go all the way back to the transformer, it would be able to hop from the neighboring panel instead.
 
I have two main 200 amp panels and a house full of Insteon, and it works fine. That said, most of the lighting circuits are on one panel, with heating and appliances on the other, but a few Insteon circuits are on the latter panel as well, and its pretty close to 100%. With signal lincs and dual band devices you should be in great shape.
 
I have a single 200 amp panel with 40+ switches, half are dual-band and Inseton is about 75% reliable.  If I were doing it again I would go with a different technology.  The problems I have I believe are related to powerline signal interference/signal sucking, the dual-band signaling doesn't seem to help, and I have a half a dozen filters and 4 access-points installed. 
 
Your two 200Amp panels come from the same meter, right? If so, you should be fine with the stanard Insteon architecture which includes bridging the different legs of your electrical service at some point.
 
Thanks for all the quick replies. The panels are right next to each other and fed from the same meter. The circuits are pretty well balanced between the panels, with lights, recepticals, appliances, hvac, etc spread across both. It sounds like I should be in good shape, barring any issues with signal-sucking devices.
 
wuench said:
I have a single 200 amp panel with 40+ switches, half are dual-band and Inseton is about 75% reliable.  If I were doing it again I would go with a different technology.  The problems I have I believe are related to powerline signal interference/signal sucking, the dual-band signaling doesn't seem to help, and I have a half a dozen filters and 4 access-points installed. 
Click to expand...
 
You shouldn't have to be dealing with that. A good installer will be able to help you trace the fault in your home's wiring. I'm assuming you've tried to isolate things like refrigerators and other equipment that are the common culprits, so I'll suggest an uncommon one: your breaker panel wiring. I had a customer who's electrician was crossing grounds between circuits in the breaker panel, and INSTEON wasn't working on those circuits. I had him open the panel, we saw the crossed wiring, uncrossed it, and voila. Good luck!
 
ChrisCicc said:
You shouldn't have to be dealing with that. A good installer will be able to help you trace the fault in your home's wiring. I'm assuming you've tried to isolate things like refrigerators and other equipment that are the common culprits, so I'll suggest an uncommon one: your breaker panel wiring. I had a customer who's electrician was crossing grounds between circuits in the breaker panel, and INSTEON wasn't working on those circuits. I had him open the panel, we saw the crossed wiring, uncrossed it, and voila. Good luck!
Click to expand...
 
Sorry Chris,
 
But crossing neutral wires between circuits in a breaker panel doesn't make much sense. 
 
The Main breaker panel has a buss bar that is bonded to the transformer return line to the utility transformer.  There should not be a position sensitivity on the buss bar.  If there is, the panel is overloaded (carrying excessive current). 
 
I am assuming the you moved the neutral wires closer to the breaker that was serving the circuit.  Other than neatness and ease of identification, that should have had zero effect.
 
What you may have done is tighten a connection or broken though some oxidation on the wire/buss bar termination.  Improving a poor connection would absolutely have an effect.  You may have fixed the problem, but I can't believe it was due to the relative location of the neutral connection.
 
Termination into a sub panel is a bit different.  Here there are two buss bars (neutral and ground) that must be kept separate.  NEC code requires all ground connections in a sub panel to be terminated separate from the neutral and taken directly back to the main panel (no current on the ground).
 
There is a high possibility of circuit craziness in the house, given some of the stuff I have seen, but I doubt I will ever isolate it.  The only solutions I have found are to add filters.  Although I might pop the panel and take a look again.  It is also possible that the multiple generations of Insteon switches I have aren't working well together since I have been doing insteon since day 1.  I have already had one round of warranty replacements for the flicker issue.
 
In any case, powerline protocols are just a mistake IMHO and Insteon is obviously overselling/overhyping the whole dual band thing as that has not helped me. My reliability actually went down when I started converting to dual-band especially the day I replaced my PLM with a dual band one.
 
So when this next round of Insteon switches starts dying I will probably migrate to a wireless technology like zwave (or maybe wifi?).  I doubt I will have too long to wait.... ;)
 
I appreciate the help Chris....
 
IndyMike said:
Sorry Chris,
 
But crossing neutral wires between circuits in a breaker panel doesn't make much sense. 
 
The Main breaker panel has a buss bar that is bonded to the transformer return line to the utility transformer.  There should not be a position sensitivity on the buss bar.  If there is, the panel is overloaded (carrying excessive current). 
 
I am assuming the you moved the neutral wires closer to the breaker that was serving the circuit.  Other than neatness and ease of identification, that should have had zero effect.
 
What you may have done is tighten a connection or broken though some oxidation on the wire/buss bar termination.  Improving a poor connection would absolutely have an effect.  You may have fixed the problem, but I can't believe it was due to the relative location of the neutral connection.
 
Termination into a sub panel is a bit different.  Here there are two buss bars (neutral and ground) that must be kept separate.  NEC code requires all ground connections in a sub panel to be terminated separate from the neutral and taken directly back to the main panel (no current on the ground).
Click to expand...
 
Not neutrals - grounds. It was causing some sort of (I presume) feedback loop. Isolating each ground to its own circuit rather than crossing between them did the trick. For anything other than data signaling, what the electrician did doesn't really make a difference.
 
As far as Wifi, the one limitation that I run into with large homes is limited range. I think some sort of IP addressable mesh network is the future of HA protocols. Z-Wave is trying to position itself there with Z/IP. I agree powerline signaling, while good for extending range now, is causing issues too often. But then Z-Wave isn't perfect either...
 
But the grounds and neutrals end up in the same place in the breaker box.   I think it's a plausible theory given the noise ground loops cause with audio, etc.  And yeah I don't think an electrician would necessarily care, it is really not something the average user should be forced to deal with, though IMHO.  
 
I do my own electrical all the time, but I am still nervous about getting into this electrical box as the main breakers are still live, I am just one slip away from solving all of my issues for good. ;)
 
Sorry about taking a left in this thread.  I just wanted the O.P. to understand that it is far from a perfect world when it comes to Insteon.
 
oberkc said:
 

My understanding is that insteon signals are sent over the "hot" (aka non-grounded) conductor. 
Click to expand...
 
Correct, the neutral connection is used for determining the timing of the electrical signal. 
 
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