If you have a water softener you probably already have a flow meter. I was able to tap into the circuit on mine for the signal but haven't done anything with it yet. I figured I would use a transistor so I don't load the circuit and maybe an optoisolator - overkill but cheap...
upgrading from 'well water' to 'municipal water'
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pete_c
Guru
I put a pressure guage at a point after the city water meter and before my main. I also have numerous shutoffs before and after to bypass the pump or to service it. The pressure guage is not electronically monitored. I have used it to adjust my pump and to check city water pressure without the use of the pump. A flow meter would be a great add.
Davey Pump
This is the style pump I am using. I don't recall now which specific model but it was one under the model that used 220 and maximum for 120VAC. Its been 7 years and running well with no issues. I don't think its being sold in the US anymore but I did take it apart to clean it about 1 year ago and called the service center in Australia with questions. I've adjusted the flow switch only once since installation. Initially the installation was going to be for only the sprinkler system but I noticed that the city water pressure/flow was so low that I couldn't flush a toilet / take a shower at the same time so I made it a whole house pump. Its relatively quiet compared to other pumps that I checked out. Water pressure in our court was similiar to all the homes and everyone in the court needed to add a supplimental pump.
The Davey pump appears to have been constructed to be very plug and play with user replaceable accessible parts and very durable.
I have two other water pumps - one is a storm water pump and it was purchased locally with a lifetime warranty and has failed 3 times in the last 7 years (each time I have received a new pump replacement) - well known mfg - will look at it and post mfg. It is a flo-tech pump with a lifetime warranty. The pump has failed and not the float switch which is integrated into the pump.
I wish I had a well right now for just the sprinkler system. (100% of the homes outside of our subdivision (100 homes) are utilizing wells). Town just issued a watering ban a couple of weeks back due to the failure of three main well pumps. We've had some rain but not much in the last two weeks.
Davey Pump
This is the style pump I am using. I don't recall now which specific model but it was one under the model that used 220 and maximum for 120VAC. Its been 7 years and running well with no issues. I don't think its being sold in the US anymore but I did take it apart to clean it about 1 year ago and called the service center in Australia with questions. I've adjusted the flow switch only once since installation. Initially the installation was going to be for only the sprinkler system but I noticed that the city water pressure/flow was so low that I couldn't flush a toilet / take a shower at the same time so I made it a whole house pump. Its relatively quiet compared to other pumps that I checked out. Water pressure in our court was similiar to all the homes and everyone in the court needed to add a supplimental pump.
The Davey pump appears to have been constructed to be very plug and play with user replaceable accessible parts and very durable.
I have two other water pumps - one is a storm water pump and it was purchased locally with a lifetime warranty and has failed 3 times in the last 7 years (each time I have received a new pump replacement) - well known mfg - will look at it and post mfg. It is a flo-tech pump with a lifetime warranty. The pump has failed and not the float switch which is integrated into the pump.
I wish I had a well right now for just the sprinkler system. (100% of the homes outside of our subdivision (100 homes) are utilizing wells). Town just issued a watering ban a couple of weeks back due to the failure of three main well pumps. We've had some rain but not much in the last two weeks.
That's an interesting idea that I hadn't considered. My softener (Fleck 9000SE) does have a flow meter on it. So far, all I've done is tap into the leads for the motor that runs whenever it needs to switch to a different step in the regen cycle (e.g., from backwash to brine/rinse, from brine/rinse to rapid rinse, etc.). The tap closes a relay that is connected to the data logger so I know when each regen cycle step starts/stops.
Looking at the diagram for the SE control, it shows a 1" paddle wheel flow meter with three wires connected to it. The red is marked +, the black -, and the green "S". The amount of water used since last regen is shown on the control's display, in gallon units. There is also a "flow indicator" on the control display that flashes at different speeds depending on flow level, including a trickle.
Any suggestions on how to tap into the flow meter leads (what wire does what) and what I can connect on the other end for monitoring flow. I have available an Elk M1G, Barix Barionet, and CQC, along with various "relays-in-a-box". I'm all about overkill on this kind of stuff, so that's not a problem. I guess there would be a little trial-and-error time to determine what a flow meter pulse "means" (how many pulses per gallon?).
Thanks,
Ira
I have a Fleck 2510 SE so it should be very similar. The connector for the flow meter is a standard Molex series so I made a small cable to insert between the flow meter connector and the PC board with extra wires for the black and green (signal) - no modification of the unit required. I got a number of yellow sheets with mine (I bought it online and installed it myself) that go into "master programming" that most people probably don't have to mess with. It lists pulses/gallon for various flowmeters - for 1" paddlewheel meter it lists 2.1 pulses/gal. Should be easy to check this against the display of gallons on the softener once you build an interface to some other counter. I have a smaller flow meter and get 126 pulses/gal (I think...). It has been a while since I measured the levels on the wires. I was thinking of driving a transistor base with something like a 22k resistor and the collector into a PIC micro. The PIC was to count the pulses. Then some sort of serial link to my Linux box with misterhouse, etc. With lots of other things going on it will be quite a while before I get this set up.
If you put something together I would be interested in the details.
If you put something together I would be interested in the details.
According to the SE Master Programming manual, the 3/4" turbine meter does indeed give you 126 pulses per gallon. The 1" paddle wheel meter like mine gives you eight pulses per gallon. There's also a 3/4" paddle wheel meter that gives you 20 pulses/gal.
You can buy the complete 3/4" paddle wheel flow meter assembly for about $125. I wonder if it would work if you plumbed one of these things "standalone, in-line" downstream from the softener and just used it as a flow meter? You could buy a 24V wall wart to power it. What else could you use with it to count the pulses?
For anyone who is interested, this manual shows the electronics diagram for the controller on page 48. Page 34 shows the various meter assemblies. In "figure 31" at the top of page 34, the 3/4" paddle wheel flow meter is shown at the top left of the page as "item 1". "Item 3" at the top right of the page is the 3/4" turbine wheel flow meter. The 1" paddle wheel flow meter shown as "figure 32" is what mine has. The 1-1/2" meter shown in figure 33 sells for about $700. It's all brass, while the others are made of a plastic called "Noryl" (at least mine is).
So...either 126, 20, or 8 pulses/gal depending on the meter seems like pretty good granularity since the "regular" water meters are one pulse/gal. I checked earlier today, and mine picks up a pretty small trickle.
If someone can explain to me what it will take to integrate one of these (not the one in the softener) into my Elk-M1G/Barionet/CQC/whatever environment, I will probably give it a shot.
Thanks,
Ira
You can buy the complete 3/4" paddle wheel flow meter assembly for about $125. I wonder if it would work if you plumbed one of these things "standalone, in-line" downstream from the softener and just used it as a flow meter? You could buy a 24V wall wart to power it. What else could you use with it to count the pulses?
For anyone who is interested, this manual shows the electronics diagram for the controller on page 48. Page 34 shows the various meter assemblies. In "figure 31" at the top of page 34, the 3/4" paddle wheel flow meter is shown at the top left of the page as "item 1". "Item 3" at the top right of the page is the 3/4" turbine wheel flow meter. The 1" paddle wheel flow meter shown as "figure 32" is what mine has. The 1-1/2" meter shown in figure 33 sells for about $700. It's all brass, while the others are made of a plastic called "Noryl" (at least mine is).
So...either 126, 20, or 8 pulses/gal depending on the meter seems like pretty good granularity since the "regular" water meters are one pulse/gal. I checked earlier today, and mine picks up a pretty small trickle.
If someone can explain to me what it will take to integrate one of these (not the one in the softener) into my Elk-M1G/Barionet/CQC/whatever environment, I will probably give it a shot.
Thanks,
Ira
You are correct on the 8 pulses/gal for yours. I got metric numbers by mistake.
As far as using this for your system why have two? It is very easy to connect to the one in the softener without any permanent changes by just getting a couple connectors. But it's your choice...
I would guess the + and - are 5VDC. Easy to check with a meter. If you get another flow meter just supply the voltage and have something to count the pulses. There are lots of ways to count pulses. I am not familiar with the systems you named but may someone else can comment.
As far as using this for your system why have two? It is very easy to connect to the one in the softener without any permanent changes by just getting a couple connectors. But it's your choice...
I would guess the + and - are 5VDC. Easy to check with a meter. If you get another flow meter just supply the voltage and have something to count the pulses. There are lots of ways to count pulses. I am not familiar with the systems you named but may someone else can comment.
Had some free time today, so I put a voltmeter to the water softener flow meter leads. Voltage across the red(+) and black(-) leads was a constant 19.5Vdc. Voltage across the black(-) and green(S) leads varied. With no water flow, it was 5.1Vdc. I turned on a faucet just enough to get the flow LED to start flashing, and voltage across the green and black leads would vary between 5.1Vdc and almost zero (6mVdc). I'm using a pretty cheap Exetech multimeter, so it may not be all that accurate. The wall wart is 24Vac.
The strange thing was that it was bouncing between 5.1 and zero very rapidly, even though the flow was a trickle. It turns out that my water softener has the 3/4" turbine flow meter instead of the 1" paddle wheel. I had assumed the latter because the the water inlet/outlet are both 1". I double-checked my softener settings, and it is set to 133 pulses/gal, which is correct for the 9000SE (but different than the 2510SE). So it looks like I'm getting about one pulse/ounce. The softener has a maximum flow rate of about 12 gal/min, so I could be getting up to about 25 pulses/second.
Since I'm not really an electronics guy, I'm kinda at a dead end unless I can find some info on what I need to do to tap the flow meter and get it into my "system". All the earlier post about transistors and optoisolators is beyond me. I can read/build simple circuits, but I need something to start with.
Any help out there???
Thanks,
Ira
The strange thing was that it was bouncing between 5.1 and zero very rapidly, even though the flow was a trickle. It turns out that my water softener has the 3/4" turbine flow meter instead of the 1" paddle wheel. I had assumed the latter because the the water inlet/outlet are both 1". I double-checked my softener settings, and it is set to 133 pulses/gal, which is correct for the 9000SE (but different than the 2510SE). So it looks like I'm getting about one pulse/ounce. The softener has a maximum flow rate of about 12 gal/min, so I could be getting up to about 25 pulses/second.
Since I'm not really an electronics guy, I'm kinda at a dead end unless I can find some info on what I need to do to tap the flow meter and get it into my "system". All the earlier post about transistors and optoisolators is beyond me. I can read/build simple circuits, but I need something to start with.
Any help out there???
Thanks,
Ira
Hello guys,
Ive posted my very first message a month ago on cocoontech and ivent been able to find it back.. IM sorry if im renewing it here. Let me explain to you what im up for..
I just want to know how i can manage to control and be alerted about over water consumption in my house using homeseer and a watermeter with pulse count 1l/pulse (which Ive ordered and should be soon delivered).
As regards my homeseer installation, i have a ACRF-2 X10 RF that communicates with DS10 modules.. HS version is 2.4.0.11 on Vista Ultimate..
Can anyone have suggestion about the implementation ?
Thanks
Vic1743
Ive posted my very first message a month ago on cocoontech and ivent been able to find it back.. IM sorry if im renewing it here. Let me explain to you what im up for..
I just want to know how i can manage to control and be alerted about over water consumption in my house using homeseer and a watermeter with pulse count 1l/pulse (which Ive ordered and should be soon delivered).
As regards my homeseer installation, i have a ACRF-2 X10 RF that communicates with DS10 modules.. HS version is 2.4.0.11 on Vista Ultimate..
Can anyone have suggestion about the implementation ?
Thanks
Vic1743
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
I am not familiar with homeseer, but no matter what software package you will need something to detect the pulse... some sort of I/O module that is compatible with Homeseer would probably do it OR you can look into a 1-wire system 'pulse' counter which would count the pulse which your software then reads out from time to time (if would continue to count even if you Homeseer PC is off). You would need a 'counter' and some sort of host interface (they come in USB and RS-232). http://www.hobby-boards.com/catalog/produc...;products_id=42
If you use a normal I/0 my concern is if the pulse will be on long enough for your system to capture it. I don't have personal experience this myself. I actually will be ordering my meters in a few week and plan to use the 1-wire solution, but this partly because i'll also be attaching some other 1-wire based devices (rain meter, etc).
Hello Mavric
Thanks for your reply..
Ill start from here and dig into it..
Homeseer has an optional plugin that manages 1 wire network. So in terms of hardware should be no problem. As regards software, id like homeseer to alert me in case of waterleakage. Think there has to be some software scripting or adaptation..
I have also leaf boards in every room for water leakage detection but in case the leakage comes from underneath the house..
Ill let you know
Thanks
Vic1743
Thanks for your reply..
Ill start from here and dig into it..
Homeseer has an optional plugin that manages 1 wire network. So in terms of hardware should be no problem. As regards software, id like homeseer to alert me in case of waterleakage. Think there has to be some software scripting or adaptation..
I have also leaf boards in every room for water leakage detection but in case the leakage comes from underneath the house..
Ill let you know
Thanks
Vic1743
I decided to use the pulse counter feature of the Brultech ECM-1240 to monitor my water flow. As JimS suggested, I'm using an optocoupler circuit to electronically isolate the softener electronics from the ECM-1240 device. Also, because the ECM can only handle up to 14 pulses/second, I have to include a pulse divider circuit. Paul provided diagrams over on the Brultech forum for both types of circuits and a "combo" diagram for someone like me that has to have both. The circuits are fairly simple and very cheap (less than three dollars for all the electronic components if you can find them locally).
I have the circuits and ECM working correctly in a test environment using a 5Vdc wall wart and a momentary pushbutton switch to simulate the softener pulse output.
This weekend, I hope to do some testing on the water softener pulse circuit by tying into the flowmeter and connecting it to just the optocoupler circuit to ensure that it doesn't have an adverse affect on the softener operation.
Ira
I have the circuits and ECM working correctly in a test environment using a 5Vdc wall wart and a momentary pushbutton switch to simulate the softener pulse output.
This weekend, I hope to do some testing on the water softener pulse circuit by tying into the flowmeter and connecting it to just the optocoupler circuit to ensure that it doesn't have an adverse affect on the softener operation.
Ira
pete_c
Guru
I personally use the HB dual counter/XAP/HS for my water flow measurements from two meters. I utilize 4 1-Wire networks and put this dual counter on its own 1-wire network. The other ones are used for various 1-Wire devices. (counters utilized for rain tipping bucket and lightning sensor).
Someone on HS designed a "debounce" circuit for the DS10A if you wanted to use that device for counting. It is here:
DS10A
Someone on HS designed a "debounce" circuit for the DS10A if you wanted to use that device for counting. It is here:
DS10A
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
So i had my sprinkler system (10 zones altogether) installed over the last 2 days and the pressure gauge and water meter have already paid off.
I turns out some of the valves were not properly closing, but they werent open far enough that you'd really notice...especially on the 2 zones that were drip based.
My system has a master valve so they wouldn't be 'leaking' 24/7... but these 2 zones would have been leaking during the entire irrigation period.
I was able to find this out by having on the master valve on and not any of the zone valves. I noticed water usage when there shouldn't be any. If the meter hadn't said so the installers would have never believe me when i was saying that there was a leak somewhere. I'm just glad it was a valve and they didn't have to dig up all their pipe again..haha
Anyways...so i had a DLJ 7575 with pulse output put in as well as a pressure gauge, the pressure gauge is only manual readout but will hopefully give me some clues when the filter needs to be changed.
One word of advice... I can't be 100% sure, but i think i didn't leave enough 'straight' between the meter and the pressure guage. At high pressure and flow the pressure gauge needle is vibrating. I think this is due to turbulance in the water flow caused by the meter. So i would suggest to either put some more straight pipe between the 2 or have the pressure guage upstream of the meter (not sure if this would fix it).
So in my automation rules i'll be building in something where each day as part of it's routine it shuts all valves except for the master and then checks if any water is flowing. If so..something is wrong and i would be notified.
The other useful thing i thought of was that for those using well water you could monitor if there is water flow when there should be. Basically if you run your well dry you can damage your pump, so if you have routine that check the flow and it sees no flow when valves are open then probably your well ran dry and you should raise an alarm or shut down your pump if you have control over it. The pumps may have some built in protection, but another layer doesn't hurt.
The last thing i'm using the meter for is to monitor it in combination with using a brultech to see if my pump is cycling. My sprinklers have replaceable nozzler for different 'gallons per minute' ratings. If you pump cycles it means you're restricting it too much, so you would replace some nozzler with higher values to 'tune it in'.
All this probably should be in another thread, but oh well.
I turns out some of the valves were not properly closing, but they werent open far enough that you'd really notice...especially on the 2 zones that were drip based.
My system has a master valve so they wouldn't be 'leaking' 24/7... but these 2 zones would have been leaking during the entire irrigation period.
I was able to find this out by having on the master valve on and not any of the zone valves. I noticed water usage when there shouldn't be any. If the meter hadn't said so the installers would have never believe me when i was saying that there was a leak somewhere. I'm just glad it was a valve and they didn't have to dig up all their pipe again..haha
Anyways...so i had a DLJ 7575 with pulse output put in as well as a pressure gauge, the pressure gauge is only manual readout but will hopefully give me some clues when the filter needs to be changed.
One word of advice... I can't be 100% sure, but i think i didn't leave enough 'straight' between the meter and the pressure guage. At high pressure and flow the pressure gauge needle is vibrating. I think this is due to turbulance in the water flow caused by the meter. So i would suggest to either put some more straight pipe between the 2 or have the pressure guage upstream of the meter (not sure if this would fix it).
So in my automation rules i'll be building in something where each day as part of it's routine it shuts all valves except for the master and then checks if any water is flowing. If so..something is wrong and i would be notified.
The other useful thing i thought of was that for those using well water you could monitor if there is water flow when there should be. Basically if you run your well dry you can damage your pump, so if you have routine that check the flow and it sees no flow when valves are open then probably your well ran dry and you should raise an alarm or shut down your pump if you have control over it. The pumps may have some built in protection, but another layer doesn't hurt.
The last thing i'm using the meter for is to monitor it in combination with using a brultech to see if my pump is cycling. My sprinklers have replaceable nozzler for different 'gallons per minute' ratings. If you pump cycles it means you're restricting it too much, so you would replace some nozzler with higher values to 'tune it in'.
All this probably should be in another thread, but oh well.
FYI...I stumbled across this series of water meters while looking for a flow switch. They look similar to the Jerman water meters, but they have meters up to 1" that have .1 ppg (instead of 1 ppg like the Jerman meters). I don't know anything about the meters or the company, but they do have some interesting stuff. I'm considering one of their paddle flow switches that screw into a "T" instead of mounting inline.
Ira
Ira
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