A description of how you can get "scammed" with home automation equipment. I had a 7-year old $30 motion-detecting toggle switch mounted in an electrical box in a garage. It finally failed. I tried replacing it with the same model, but that was no longer available. I purchased three different similar switches, one by Pass & Seymour, one called Watt-Stopper, and one by Leviton. All of these failed to operate a simple pair of overhead lights. One of them couldn't handle CFL bulbs, and other two were unreliable in turning the lights on or off. (Won't go into detail on that.) I decided to go with the "master" and order Smarthome automation devices. First, I ordered a togglelink switch and a motion detector to control it (~$90). When they wouldn't work, Smarthome's tech. services guys informed me that I had to install two access points ($40 ea.) to connect the two phases of my electrical wiring. I did that, and the devices still didn't work reliably. Would turn lights on, but wouldn't turn them off. Another call to Smarthome tech services informed me that the two CFL bulbs were putting too much electrical noise into the system, so I would have to purchase two $25 noise-suppressors, crawl up to my 10-ft. ceiling, remove the fixtures, and install these devices inside the bases. Looked on internet and found others have had similar problems, sometimes solved by replacing CFL bulbs with a different brand. That didn't work either! I assume by now you have been tracking the money invested! Yep, that's $220 to replace a formerly functional $30 switch which never failed to operate properly until the day it "died"! Smarthome junk will now all have to be returned and I get to start over looking for a simple device to detect movement and turn the lights on, and then turn them off. Have since learned that the motion detectors on most of these devices are infrared sensing. When garage is 99 degrees, I guess the motion sensor has trouble detecting body heat at 98 degrees, (although my old one didn't!)! Very expensive, troublesome lesson!
Smarthome Insteon Fiasco
- Thread starter bkline
- Start date
Maybe you should have registered here before this morning and asked a few questions before spending all of that money.
Also, what are you so mad about? You say you're going to return it - you'll get your money back. Plus, why is this a SmartHome Insteon fiasco, instead of a Pass & Seymour, Leviton and SmartHome Fiasco?
Also, what are you so mad about? You say you're going to return it - you'll get your money back. Plus, why is this a SmartHome Insteon fiasco, instead of a Pass & Seymour, Leviton and SmartHome Fiasco?
Thanks for your reply. All valid points! First of all, since this is my first experience with Smarthome Insteon products, it would have been difficult for me to have known what questions to have asked. Remember, hindsight is always 20/20! I have had a lot of do-it-yourself experience with electrical and technical devices so I proceeded on faith that the items I was purchasing would do what they were described to do, as I always have in the past with modest success.
Actually, I’m not “mad” at anything or anyone, but am upset with myself that, at this point in my life, I proceeded with such naiveté. Just how stupid can I be to “assume” that something would perform as described! Regarding getting my money back, yep, you’re correct, minus the nuisance of having to “uninstall” all of the junk and pay the return shipping.
Regarding the manufacturers of the other switches, again I am upset with myself for being so presumptuous as to assume that an item would perform as advertised.
Sorry I impugned your company, Smarthome! (I assume you are employed by them since you are “rising” so vociferously to their defense!)
Actually, I’m not “mad” at anything or anyone, but am upset with myself that, at this point in my life, I proceeded with such naiveté. Just how stupid can I be to “assume” that something would perform as described! Regarding getting my money back, yep, you’re correct, minus the nuisance of having to “uninstall” all of the junk and pay the return shipping.
Regarding the manufacturers of the other switches, again I am upset with myself for being so presumptuous as to assume that an item would perform as advertised.
Sorry I impugned your company, Smarthome! (I assume you are employed by them since you are “rising” so vociferously to their defense!)
I agree with Swancoat, and I am pretty sure he doens't work for SmartHome (neither do I).
[font="arial] [/font][font="arial][size="2"]The problem here is that you didn't do your research. You decided to replace a simple motion sensor switch with a complex home automation system, while you had little to no experience with the technology.[/size][/font]
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[font="arial][size="2"]Now granted, everyone has to start somewhere, but calling something junk/scam because you didn't understand the technology and limitations is a little harsh IMO.[/size][/font][font="arial][size="2"]It is an interesting lesson tho. Not everyone realizes that hot garages might render motion sensors useless.[/size][/font]
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[font="arial][size="2"]Did you find a solution to the problem? [/size][/font]Wondering if there are units which use multiple technologies (and not just IR), just like the stand alone motion sensors you can buy.
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[font="arial] [/font][font="arial][size="2"]The problem here is that you didn't do your research. You decided to replace a simple motion sensor switch with a complex home automation system, while you had little to no experience with the technology.[/size][/font]
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[font="arial][size="2"]Now granted, everyone has to start somewhere, but calling something junk/scam because you didn't understand the technology and limitations is a little harsh IMO.[/size][/font][font="arial][size="2"]It is an interesting lesson tho. Not everyone realizes that hot garages might render motion sensors useless.[/size][/font]
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[font="arial][size="2"]Did you find a solution to the problem? [/size][/font]Wondering if there are units which use multiple technologies (and not just IR), just like the stand alone motion sensors you can buy.
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Watt-Stopper was RS-250. Have no idea what technology it uses. Turned out to be unreliable. Might turn lights on, but not consistently, then they might stay on for hours, even with time potentiometer turned all the way down. Light sensor didn't work. Garage has 3 large windows which are flooded with light on sunny days, but turning potentiometer all the way in either direction did not prevent the lights from coming on when garage was already well lit. Tried both incandescent and CFL, made no difference. Their tech. service and I both finally gave up trying to get this switch to work properly.
That is not a dual technology unit. They typically are unreliable where the detection is not 100% clear cut to the device. I would try one with a PIR and and Ultrasonic Pick up. They are typically double or more than the simple PIR units. They also work much better.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Sorry about your frustrations.
Your problem was very simple to diagnose, whenever you can turn it on 100% of the time, and you can't turn it off, the thing you turned on is making power line noise. This is 101 stuff here. You must have either been having a failure to communicate or you had a moron at SH on the phone.
Most CFL don't do that in my experience. I have quite a few in my house and none mess with my Insteon switches, but I did have a low voltage transformer for some under cabinet lights that did. Just an FYI, x10 noise filters work perfectly well and cost virtually nothing on ebay (fixed my problem).
I am surprised that switching brands of CFL didn't do the trick as my experience is that most (all in my case) don't mess with anything.
If the only thing you wanted was one light to turn on when motion is detected in the room where the switch is located, you should really have never messed with Insteon anyway. There are plenty of wall switch/motion detector all-in-one units that work with cfl loads, they must have a hundred of them in my office building. I can't really comment on their effectiveness in a 100 degree garage as they are all inside.
Your problem was very simple to diagnose, whenever you can turn it on 100% of the time, and you can't turn it off, the thing you turned on is making power line noise. This is 101 stuff here. You must have either been having a failure to communicate or you had a moron at SH on the phone.
Most CFL don't do that in my experience. I have quite a few in my house and none mess with my Insteon switches, but I did have a low voltage transformer for some under cabinet lights that did. Just an FYI, x10 noise filters work perfectly well and cost virtually nothing on ebay (fixed my problem).
I am surprised that switching brands of CFL didn't do the trick as my experience is that most (all in my case) don't mess with anything.
If the only thing you wanted was one light to turn on when motion is detected in the room where the switch is located, you should really have never messed with Insteon anyway. There are plenty of wall switch/motion detector all-in-one units that work with cfl loads, they must have a hundred of them in my office building. I can't really comment on their effectiveness in a 100 degree garage as they are all inside.
Well finally, some constructive suggestions rather than personal attacks! I’ll try to respond to most of these in one post. The comment from Dan (electron) that I hadn’t done my research is rather amusing because, as a Ph.D. scientist with 30 years of R&D experience, I am frequently accused by my family of “over-researching” my home projects. In fact, I did not do any research when I purchased the first three replacement switches, other than moving up the cost scale, thinking that if I spent more money, I might get one that actually worked. In fact, after the first three failed switches, research is what brought me to SmartHome technology. So much for that!
Gatchel: Thanks for the advice on the WattStopper unit. However, I don’t know what model numbers use the dual technology you refer to.
Lou Apo: CFL’s have been standard “big box” store brands, mostly GE. Just in case I continue to experience trouble, do you have a specific type/model of X10 noise suppressor in mind? I checked with Amazon and e-Bay, and I obviously can’t use a plug-in noise suppressor. The only other ones I noticed were 20A 3-wire models, and since I need to mount these in the base of a cheap, plastic, incandescent bulb holder, these look like I am using a shotgun to kill a fly on the wall. However, your recommendation will be appreciated since these CFL’s may have been the cause of the trouble with the 3 failed simple, motion-detecting switches. I got the idea for these things about 15 years ago when my company also put these in our offices and conference rooms. I purchased one at that time, a cheap residential model, and installed it in my garage. It never missed a lick! It turned on with motion, shut off in the time I designated, and did not turn the lights on when the garage was illuminated by natural light. I installed one in my current house 7 years ago, and it worked the same until it recently failed. By the way, you’ll notice in my original post that I had already tried three of the type of switches you describe, to no avail. You’ll also notice that Dan already chastised me for messing with Insteon devices for such a simple task.
InToZ-wave: Thanks for the suggestion on the Leviton switch. According to the Leviton website, this switch uses PIR detection the same as the Leviton switch I already tried. I am reluctant to purchase another Leviton switch unless it has the dual-detection technology alluded to by others.
Gatchel: Thanks for the advice on the WattStopper unit. However, I don’t know what model numbers use the dual technology you refer to.
Lou Apo: CFL’s have been standard “big box” store brands, mostly GE. Just in case I continue to experience trouble, do you have a specific type/model of X10 noise suppressor in mind? I checked with Amazon and e-Bay, and I obviously can’t use a plug-in noise suppressor. The only other ones I noticed were 20A 3-wire models, and since I need to mount these in the base of a cheap, plastic, incandescent bulb holder, these look like I am using a shotgun to kill a fly on the wall. However, your recommendation will be appreciated since these CFL’s may have been the cause of the trouble with the 3 failed simple, motion-detecting switches. I got the idea for these things about 15 years ago when my company also put these in our offices and conference rooms. I purchased one at that time, a cheap residential model, and installed it in my garage. It never missed a lick! It turned on with motion, shut off in the time I designated, and did not turn the lights on when the garage was illuminated by natural light. I installed one in my current house 7 years ago, and it worked the same until it recently failed. By the way, you’ll notice in my original post that I had already tried three of the type of switches you describe, to no avail. You’ll also notice that Dan already chastised me for messing with Insteon devices for such a simple task.
InToZ-wave: Thanks for the suggestion on the Leviton switch. According to the Leviton website, this switch uses PIR detection the same as the Leviton switch I already tried. I am reluctant to purchase another Leviton switch unless it has the dual-detection technology alluded to by others.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
What's interesting is that this is one of the most accepting and easy going forums I've ever come across - there's no "USE THE SEARCH" or "RTFM!" type quotes - just people who want to help... but your posts are arrogant and combative. Your Ph.D. obviously isn't in this field, and you obviously didn't do much R&D in this area - but, you've come to a place where people will be happy to help. Just try exercising a little humility, and you'll find plenty of people (although not Ph.D.'s) who have plenty of experience and are happy to help.
PIR's as mentioned don't work well in unconditioned space. At times, Dual Technology sensors may not work either - depends on the model. Some won't trip unless they see a trigger on both sides; others are smart enough to know that the IR temp is too close to body temp and turn off the PIR. One or the other isn't ideal - microwave will pick up people behind the sensor even - on the other side of a wall. I don't have a recommendation - but I suggest doing your research for a garage-friendly one.
I have a fully connected system - so off-hand I can't think of a simple enough system... UPB works awesome for me and a bridge to EnOcean or Z-Wave or even X10RF works fine - but you're talking about many hundreds of dollars all to fix what a $30 switch used to do. IMO, time to research your in-wall switches and just keep looking until you find the right one... no reason to look for an automation system.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
1) The light next to my computer is a cfl that is controlled by an Insteon switch without a problem (that switch has 5 bulbs on it). This is one of many in my house and they are all different brands. This particular bulb is a Sylvania CF19EL/MINI. I write the install date on my bulbs, this is 3/5/09. It is a 19 watt 2700K CFL.
2) I don't own any of those auto switches so I can't give you a brand. I just know they are all over at my office and seem to work.
3) The one and only noise filter in my house is an x10 20 amp hardwired one that is sold on ebay for about $10. It can be installed anywhere between the switch and the noise source, so perhaps if it doesn't fit in where the bulb is installed, it may fit where the switch is installed. Or another box could be added next to one of those boxes to accomodate it.
Lou, thanks for the specifics. That's what I needed to proceed. It looks like I was looking at the correct noise filter after all. Just finding a place to install it will be a bit of a nuisance, but worth the effort if it works. The switch box is already full; in fact, I had difficulty squeezing the Insteon switch into it due to the number of wires in there. It looks like the electrician used that particular box as a junction box, given the number of wires. I'll see if I can squeeze the noise suppressor into the box under one of the fixtures. If not, your suggestion to add a box beside one of those makes sense.
Currently, I have retained the SmartHome stuff since I am still within the 30-day refund period. With incandescent bulbs, this system is working, sort of. I'll probably install your noise suppressor and try the CFL's again. I am waiting for the manufacturers to make a 100-W equivalent LED bulb which illuminates in all directions, not just downward. When they come out, I'll probably try replacing the CFL's with those. Spouse doesn't like LED's in certain areas of the house because the color temperature is too blue-white, but should be okay in garage. I found 75W equivalent LED's, but they don't throw enough light into the large garage from a 10' ceiling. Tried 75W incandescents and CFL's and wasn't satisfied with those either. Looks like it will have to be 100W equivalent.
Currently, I have retained the SmartHome stuff since I am still within the 30-day refund period. With incandescent bulbs, this system is working, sort of. I'll probably install your noise suppressor and try the CFL's again. I am waiting for the manufacturers to make a 100-W equivalent LED bulb which illuminates in all directions, not just downward. When they come out, I'll probably try replacing the CFL's with those. Spouse doesn't like LED's in certain areas of the house because the color temperature is too blue-white, but should be okay in garage. I found 75W equivalent LED's, but they don't throw enough light into the large garage from a 10' ceiling. Tried 75W incandescents and CFL's and wasn't satisfied with those either. Looks like it will have to be 100W equivalent.
