Natural Gas Whole House Power Backup?

[Steve]

Yea, regular gas can be a PITA too. I have like 8 or 9 5-gal cans I fill up beforehand that I would just have to be frugal with if gas is unavailable. But sometimes the company I work for (who has a large infrastructure to keep running) makes gas available to employees in need. Abyway if the codes here are similar I would not even be able to put a tank on my property as it would need to pretty much be up against the building.

 

[Kevin L]

The funny thing is that I see propane tanks above ground right against some homes. They seem to be around 100-200 gals. People use them for pool heaters, cooking, etc. Plus, they are "loaned" by the gas company if you buy the propane from them. I'm in Charlotte County, and I don't understand why I need to follow all these rules for a buried tank, but an above ground is right up to the house.

 

[carry15+1]

This is some mightly expensive electric - $800+ for a week ($3200 per month)! What do you pay for propane down there - I just filled my tank at somewhere around $1.80 a gallon a couple months back.

Kevin - This is my biggest complaint with the whole house units - they are fuel eating monsters. If money is not a problem I guess they are the way to go. Myself I'm too cheap to burn more fuel than I need to get by.

I have a Honda EU6500is inverter/generator which is extremely fuel efficient. I'm hoping to pick up a Honda EU1000 or 2000 for small power requirements. I still have my old water cooled Honda 6500 in the barn and I use it to power the well (3 hp, down 450 feet) during long term outages. The EU6500 can easily handle the two refrigerators and two freezers, plus some extras for comfort. I have a dual fuel Trane furnace and a 1000 gallon above ground propane tank. I've lived quite comfortably through more than a few power outages, some as long as 3 weeks in the middle of winter - here is SW Missouri.

I think the most expensive part and probably main reason I just stick with my portable is digging up the yard and putting a large tank in. Most homes here in SFL don't have gas lines run to them so a propane tank in the yard is usually the answer. But the cost of putting that in plus the cost of fills (and refill availability if needed during a storm) kind of keeps me on the portable.

Hi, Steve.

I'm in SWFL and did not have gas lines to the house. I had to bury a tank, but did it while under construction. I really wanted a 1,000 gal instead of 500, but codes required the 1,000 be 25' from the nearest structure, easement, etc, rather than the 15' the 500 gal required. As if I'm going to be safe if there was a rupture at either distance. I expect the propane will last up to a week with good energy management. If things are so bad that I can't get a refill in a week, wouldn't you have a bigger problem getting your gas cans refilled?

IAE, let's hope it's another quiet season. I hope the money I spent on the generator goes to waste and that I'll never need it.

Kevin

 

[Kevin L]

This is some mightly expensive electric - $800+ for a week ($3200 per month)! What do you pay for propane down there - I just filled my tank at somewhere around $1.80 a gallon a couple months back.

Kevin - This is my biggest complaint with the whole house units - they are fuel eating monsters. If money is not a problem I guess they are the way to go. Myself I'm too cheap to burn more fuel than I need to get by.

I have a Honda EU6500is inverter/generator which is extremely fuel efficient. I'm hoping to pick up a Honda EU1000 or 2000 for small power requirements. I still have my old water cooled Honda 6500 in the barn and I use it to power the well (3 hp, down 450 feet) during long term outages. The EU6500 can easily handle the two refrigerators and two freezers, plus some extras for comfort. I have a dual fuel Trane furnace and a 1000 gallon above ground propane tank. I've lived quite comfortably through more than a few power outages, some as long as 3 weeks in the middle of winter - here is SW Missouri.

I just ordered a top off of the tank and they quoted a $1.99 a gallon. No doubt that it's a lot of money to run the generator for an extended time, but I went through a hurricane on Long Island once and it took a week to get power back. I would have gladly paid the bill for propane if I had the generator.

In South and Southwest Florida, A/C is the most important thing to keep running, that's not practical with a small portable generator. Humidity can get very high here, and a sealed, un-airconditioned home can grow mold pretty quickly. Plus, I want to make sure the automation, camera, and security systems stay running, especially if we have to evacuate.

Between the generator, tank, lines, wiring, and installation, I guess I spent $20K to $25K. I hope I wasted my money, because that will mean the hurricanes passed us by.

Ironically, I'm sitting in the airport in Fort Meyers right now to head up to NJ for our son's wedding Saturday. When we booked the trip, I was worried about leaving the house in the middle of hurricane season. So what happens? TS Danny, soon to be Hurricane Danny is heading up the East coast towards NJ, and back in FL everything is calm.

Kevin

 

[Ira]

This is some mightly expensive electric - $800+ for a week ($3200 per month)! What do you pay for propane down there - I just filled my tank at somewhere around $1.80 a gallon a couple months back.

Kevin - This is my biggest complaint with the whole house units - they are fuel eating monsters. If money is not a problem I guess they are the way to go. Myself I'm too cheap to burn more fuel than I need to get by.

I have a Honda EU6500is inverter/generator which is extremely fuel efficient. I'm hoping to pick up a Honda EU1000 or 2000 for small power requirements. I still have my old water cooled Honda 6500 in the barn and I use it to power the well (3 hp, down 450 feet) during long term outages. The EU6500 can easily handle the two refrigerators and two freezers, plus some extras for comfort. I have a dual fuel Trane furnace and a 1000 gallon above ground propane tank. I've lived quite comfortably through more than a few power outages, some as long as 3 weeks in the middle of winter - here is SW Missouri.

My fillup a couple of months ago cost about $2.70/gal (and that's in SE Texas). Following Ike, my genset ran for four days powering everything (including A/C) at an average of about one gallon per hour. Even at the higher price I currently pay here (and I paid a lot more for LPG right before Ike), that's under $500 per week. I know...still very expensive. But, the specs for an EU6500isa from Honda's website say that it uses almost one gallon of fuel/gasoline per hour at the rated load. The specs for my 22kW genset show one gallon of LPG per hour at 25% load, which is 5.5kW (25% of 22kW). So "watt for watt", assuming an average usage of around 5kW, the fuel cost doesn't seem to be much different. Safety will also be an issue for many people. Not only safely connecting the genset to what it needs to power (which unfortunately many people do not do safely), but also fuel handling. At full load, continuous usage, you would be refilling the EU6500 every four hours. I assume oil changes would also be fairly frequent. Clean power to run lots of computer equipment is also important for me. I know the better portable gensets have pretty clean power now, but a lot of them still don't compare to what a good standby genset will produce.

A lot depends on where you live. It's almost a guarantee that if I have a multi-day power outage, it will be during the summer (100 degrees, 90% humidity) due to a hurricane. That means I will really need/want A/C. Unless I'm running window units (I'm not), a portable genset won't help me with A/C. If it weren't for the A/C (and "optional" electric oven), I could get by with a 7kW genset easily for virtually everything else if we are reasonably smart about usage.

Excluding hurricanes, it would be very unusual for me to have a power outage longer than five hours, and I usually go several years without one that lasts more than two hours (unless a hurricane hits). I work from home so it's important that I have convenient backup power, and it really is convenient since it's virtually automatic (when everything works right). I've never owned a portable genset, but one of the concerns I had about having one in my location was deciding when to put it in use. If I have a power outage that isn't due to a hurricane, it's probably due to a storm blowing a tree over on a nearby line, or a transformer blowing (again, due to my location). You don't know if the power will be out for five minutes or five hours and you don't have any advance notice, so the big decision is whether or not you break out the portable genset. Murphy's law says the utilty power will be restored within five minutes of you starting the genset, so you always hesitate. And it probably occured at 4:00AM during a thunderstorm. Once, after being without power for about 18 hours following a small tropical storm, and not having any idea how much longer the outage would last, I decided to buy a portable genset. I got it home, uncrated, and was literally seconds from putting in the gas when the utility company trucks drove by my house. Power was restored in less than an hour. Yes...I returned the genset since I hadn't put any fuel in it. That was Lowe's policy at the time.

I can certainly see how some/many people would consider a whole house standby genset an extravagance. But then some people consider $500K houses (housing is cheap in my area), $50K bass boats, $50K trucks/autos, $5K TVs, etc. as extravagant, also. As long as they can afford it, to each his own. After having a genset for the aftermath of Ike, my wife would refuse to live in a house that doesn't have a similar one (again, assuming we could afford it at the time).

But...you are absolutely correct. They are not cheap to run when compared to utility company power.

 

[Ira]

The funny thing is that I see propane tanks above ground right against some homes. They seem to be around 100-200 gals. People use them for pool heaters, cooking, etc. Plus, they are "loaned" by the gas company if you buy the propane from them. I'm in Charlotte County, and I don't understand why I need to follow all these rules for a buried tank, but an above ground is right up to the house.

I have an above ground 250 gallon LPG tank. It's about 35 feet from my house. Around here, people don't bury them very often. I checked into it, and it can be done but it's not cheap. Also, mine is rented. It's only about $55 a year, and they are responsible for the tank, regulator, etc., if anything goes wrong. One downside of renting is that you are locked in to only buying LPG from the owner of the tank unless it's an emergency and the owner can't get to you fast enough. My tank "calls in" to the home office daily so they always know when I need a refill.

When I had my genset installed, I added a 500 gallon tank, figuring that would last at least a week of continuous genset usage. I had to buy this one because it was only for the genset which means it could be years before it goes thru a complete fill. It's next to my genset, about 175 feet from the house, out of site behind my shop. I may have a line run from the new tank to the house and get rid of the rented tank. I probably use 500 gallons a year for my home, and very little of that during summer months when my genset is most likely to run for an extended period, so the 500 gallon tank should be fine for both uses. Plus, my wife will appreciate me getting rid of the eyesore near the house.

 

[drozwood90]

Ira,

How much to buy a 500 gallon tank?

I've always liked LPG as a good source of long term backup fuel...much like diesel it doesn't go bad...BUT what's nice about propane over diesel, if the generator is propane, it can easily be setup to run NG (most newer models I have looked at have a switch)...which in my mind, what I'd be looking at is having enough fuel to run a generator for a few days (i.e. maybe 100Gal? maybe less?), as in my area they should have the NG pumping again within that time...especially if it's Winter. So really I need enough elec. power (at a min.) to get the furnace running...or if the NG is out, get a few electric heaters running.

This is a worst case...I think even in the last few Blizzards up here, power out, etc. the NG was still flowing. I just didn't like relying on a Gas powered generator...as no elec...means no pumps...

I"ve been trying to come up with other means to create power....inverters, batteries, etc. I'm still not sure what method I want to go, as those Enphase inverters are REALLY tempting.

--Dan

 

[Ira]

Ira,

How much to buy a 500 gallon tank?

I've always liked LPG as a good source of long term backup fuel...much like diesel it doesn't go bad...BUT what's nice about propane over diesel, if the generator is propane, it can easily be setup to run NG (most newer models I have looked at have a switch)...which in my mind, what I'd be looking at is having enough fuel to run a generator for a few days (i.e. maybe 100Gal? maybe less?), as in my area they should have the NG pumping again within that time...especially if it's Winter. So really I need enough elec. power (at a min.) to get the furnace running...or if the NG is out, get a few electric heaters running.

This is a worst case...I think even in the last few Blizzards up here, power out, etc. the NG was still flowing. I just didn't like relying on a Gas powered generator...as no elec...means no pumps...

I"ve been trying to come up with other means to create power....inverters, batteries, etc. I'm still not sure what method I want to go, as those Enphase inverters are REALLY tempting.

--Dan

I think my tank cost about $1100. That included the regulator, installation, and running a line about 20 feet to the genset. As I mentioned before, mine is not buried. It just sits on a couple of pieces of concrete they brought out with them. My guess is prices vary a lot from region to region.

The expensive part was filling up the tank. I had the tank installed and filled at probably the peak of prices last summer.

Also, remember that a tank can only hold 80% of the tank size, e.g., my 500 gallon tank only holds 400 gallons, and when you get down to below 10% you may start having pressure related problems.

I've heard that it takes something really bad for the NG lines to stop flowing. They do everything they can to keep them pressurized because of the problems it causes if they lose pressure (stuff can flow back into the lines), and what can happen when they get it going again (think of all those pilot lights that went out, and their safety feature may not work correctly when NG is turned back on. That's also why it takes so long to get NG back online if they do lose it. I think Galveston took weeks if not months to get it back after they lost NG during Ike. It was especially bad due to the widespread flooding from what I heard.

 

[drozwood90]

Good point about the NG. Thinking back, the 2 blizzards I lived through up here in NY (Buffalo area) the NG was the ONLY reliable thing. The water went out and came back, the elec was out, but the NG kept on flowing.

Maybe I'll just do like I had mentioned...instead of buying a Honda (I was looking at both models you quoted...especially the 2000i), I'll construct what I mentioned...which is basically the same thing.

Basically, I'd get a E-350 Alternator (14.4V at peak, 120A peak), use a few batteries for "switch over" to my truck's alternator if the smaller engine dies / has issues / runs out of fuel. The batteries would be cheap at a salvage yard... "reincarnated" using my soon to be purchased Battery minder.

I would then use a decent power inverter, which I can "expand" at a later date with Enphase inverters (they have UL 1077 (I think), so no power from the grid, they shut down...but if you can produce a sinewave...say from a quality smart-ups, you can actually get them to run. The small engine would be able to drive from NG or propane. The other nice thing about the Enphase Inverters, they can be grid tied, so I believe their power is quality enough to run Automation over, plus they are stackable. ~230W each, at the best power to cost ratio that I have seen on a grid tied system. Combine a few of those and I get enough power to drive my Furnace (NG).

It looks like I'd need to get some kind of conversion kit to run the engine off NG / Propane as I have not seen any "purchase" engines that will run from NG / Propane...kind of annoying as NG / Propane is MUCH cheaper then gasoline...if my mower ran from propane I think I'd be saving some coin.

At any rate...what I think would be nice about all this is the flexible fuel / power input. I would only need to produce 10-14.4V in any way shape of form (hook my truck or any car up to the battery array / solar panels / etc.) and then the critical "things" can get their power from the inverters.

Of course, the "final" backup of needing to provide SOME power to the house to run electric heat...probably NOT am option on this one. I guess in this case, I'd just shut off all the water, drain the pipes and move the family into the 30' trailer. That can run off of 2 deep cycle batteries for weeks, esp. if I am recharging them with the "car" / solar. Of course, the issue is, I think I've only got 20 gallons of propane (or as you stated 18). How long will that last? Esp. if I am feeding an engine?

So, my thoughts are to find a way to get 100 or so gallons...it's not like it will expire...

Maybe I'm crazy! But living in through Blizzards, it always scared me that if the NG went out...what would I do for heat? OK, run the gas. generator...but what happens when I run out of gas? At least with this plan, so long as I can make 14.4V (any car, somehow turn the Alternator for this "generator") I can get power / heat.

--Dan

 

[sic0048]

Sounds like Dan has been watching "The Colony" - the new disaster survival show on Discovery.

 

[carry15+1]

During my most recent extended outage, which was right at 14 days, in the middle of winter and due to an ice storm bringing down the power lines AND poles. I had at that time a propane hot air furnace with a 1/3 hp blower motor. That motor, plus two freezers and two refrigerators comprised the majority of my electric load. The EU6500 ran at least 10 hours between filling and I never ran the tank dry. I did not keep accurate records of the gasoline I used, but I would guess it was somewhat less than 5 gallons per day, and could have been as low as 3 on average. I did not run the generator 24/7. We would turn it off when we went to bed and I wouldn't start it again until we got up in the morning. A fire in the fireplace supplemented our furnace and helped carry us through the night. As it was winter and one freezer and one refrigerator are located in the attached unheated garage these appliances did not run very much. We did our cooking either on the Weber propane grill, a camp stove, a toaster oven or went out for dinner ;-)

More than once I cooked baked potatoes in the fireplace and roasted hot dogs for dinner - and they were pretty good too.

My best friend had a 15 kw propane generator installed. He is less mechanically inclined and doesn't have the interest in "tinkering" during an emergency. I have a 3c #6 SO cord that connects my EU6500 to a 50 amp receptacle. A generator panel requires flipping one breaker, connecting the cordset and firing up the generator. My wife can do it in the dark with no chance of a backfeed to the power company. It's crude by some standards, but works out pretty well for us. I like the fact that I can roll my portable generator up onto my trailer and take it to our well or a neighbors for temporary power.

A previous long term outage, about 3 years ago, came at the end of March when it was still cold at night, but nice during the day, and was due to a tornado destroying all the homes in our area - the power was off for many weeks - and as we couldn't live in our home while it was rebuilt generating electricity wasn't a concern.

Hope everyone who "prepares" for the unexpected finds they don't need to use their resources. I'm always preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.

 

[Ira]

During my most recent extended outage, which was right at 14 days, in the middle of winter and due to an ice storm bringing down the power lines AND poles. I had at that time a propane hot air furnace with a 1/3 hp blower motor. That motor, plus two freezers and two refrigerators comprised the majority of my electric load. The EU6500 ran at least 10 hours between filling and I never ran the tank dry. I did not keep accurate records of the gasoline I used, but I would guess it was somewhat less than 5 gallons per day, and could have been as low as 3 on average. I did not run the generator 24/7. We would turn it off when we went to bed and I wouldn't start it again until we got up in the morning. A fire in the fireplace supplemented our furnace and helped carry us through the night. As it was winter and one freezer and one refrigerator are located in the attached unheated garage these appliances did not run very much. We did our cooking either on the Weber propane grill, a camp stove, a toaster oven or went out for dinner ;-)

More than once I cooked baked potatoes in the fireplace and roasted hot dogs for dinner - and they were pretty good too.

My best friend had a 15 kw propane generator installed. He is less mechanically inclined and doesn't have the interest in "tinkering" during an emergency. I have a 3c #6 SO cord that connects my EU6500 to a 50 amp receptacle. A generator panel requires flipping one breaker, connecting the cordset and firing up the generator. My wife can do it in the dark with no chance of a backfeed to the power company. It's crude by some standards, but works out pretty well for us. I like the fact that I can roll my portable generator up onto my trailer and take it to our well or a neighbors for temporary power.

A previous long term outage, about 3 years ago, came at the end of March when it was still cold at night, but nice during the day, and was due to a tornado destroying all the homes in our area - the power was off for many weeks - and as we couldn't live in our home while it was rebuilt generating electricity wasn't a concern.

Hope everyone who "prepares" for the unexpected finds they don't need to use their resources. I'm always preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.

That's what I mean when I said location has a lot to do with genset needs/requirements. There's not a lot I can do during an extended outage during 100 degree temps to replace the functionality of my central A/C (like your use of a fireplace). My refrigerator in the garage runs a lot during the summer, so lack of reasonably continuous power to it is a big concern.

Also, I have no doubt that a person can be smart in their genset usage and greatly reduce the fuel use. My only point about that was that "watt for watt" and based on the spec sheets, it doesn't seem like a 6.5kW portable gasoline generator is much more miserly (fuel-wise) than a 6.5kW permanent mount genset. Of course LPG does not produce as much power as gasoline unit for unit, but it sounds like LPG is quite a bit cheaper than gasoline in your area. So the same smart usage of a 6.5kW permanent mount genset may result in the same fuel costs that you saw using your portable gasoline genset. Although, the smallest standby genset I've seen is 7.5kW, I think. The key is to get the right size genset for your needs. For gensets, bigger is not always better, for several reasons.

Not trying to start an argument, but just in case some people reading this thread don't understand all of the issues...

I'm not sure from your post exactly what you are doing, but if you have constructed a cord such that one end is plugged into the generator, and the other end is a male end that can be plugged into something like an electric dryer outlet/receptacle...those cords are called "suicide cords", and there's a reason for the name (and why you can't buy one). If the cord were to be removed from the receptacle (or fell out or got knocked out) while the other end was still in the genset outlet and the genset was running, there's a serious shock hazard there.

Also, in many areas it is illegal to connect a genset to a house's electrical system without using some type of physical/mechanical device that makes it impossible to backfeed to the power grid. The two most common devices are a transfer switch (manual or automatic) and an interlock kit. I can't tell from the description above if he is using one of those devices. Simply depending on the sequence of things to provide protection, i.e., don't plug in the cord until the breaker is turned off and don't turn the breaker back on until the cord has been unplugged, does not usually meet the minimum requirements in areas that have laws requiring safe switching devices. There are a lot of people who don't use such devices and never have a problem or cause an injury, but there are also a lot of power company linemen that have been injured/killed due to the same genset practices.

 

[Ira]

One other good thing about standby gensets with automatic transfer switches, especially if you live in hurricane country...you don't have to be there to drag them out, set them up, and turn them on if the power goes out. For example, if you evacuate for a hurricane, the power will probably go out while you are away, and you may not be able to get back home for a couple of days. If you have a genset with an ATS (and everything works the way it should), that's not a problem. About the only requirement is that you need to get back within about four days to change the oil. That also assumes you have a large enough tank to run for four days.

However, in my own case...a few days before Ike hit, I decided to run my genset for about ten hours. It was brand new and I wanted to make sure it would run for an extended period with no problems, which it did. When we evacuated, I turned off all my breakers except the ones for the refrigerators and the phone answering machine. We have underground phone wires around here, so phone service is seldom interupted by bad storms. I figured that I could call my home phone during the storm to check on power. If I got the answering machine, I had power (utility company or genset). If not, either power was out (and genset had a problem) or phone was out, or both. So when I called in during Ike, I didn't get the answering machine. The next morning, I called a neighbor who had stayed during the storm. She said power was out in the area. I asked her to walk over to my house to see if my genset was running. She did and said it was running. Now I didn't know what was going on. The genset was supposedly running, but for some reason my house didn't have power. I drove home immediately (about four hours). When I got there, the genset wasn't running. I opened up the panel to see if there were any error indicator lights on. What I realized was that when I turned it off after the extended exercise a few days earlier, I left the switch in "off" isntead of "auto". I switched it to "auto". Fifteen seconds later, the genset started. Another fifteen seconds later, the ATS switched my home to genset power, and that's how we lived for the next four days until utility power was restored. Never did question my neighbor about my genset supposedly running when she checked on it. Couldn't see any good coming out of that discussion.

 

[carry15+1]

Hi Ira,

Not looking for a fight at all. My experience has been that most people do not buy ANY generator, nor make any real preparations for disaster situations. I suspect that down in Florida more people take preparation seriously.

I'm a retired commercial electrician. My genset cord is a 50 amp SO cord (4 #6 awg) with a male 240v cord connector which mates with the 240 v output of the generator. The other end is a female which mates with a male 50 amp wall mounted receptacle. Kind of like a reverse range receptacle. This wall mounted receptacle then is connected to one of two 50 amp 2 pole breakers in the emergency panel. These breakers have a cam type mechanism that prevents both from being on simultaneously. There will be no suicides with my installation

I think we both agree there are advantages to portable and fixed generator installs. One big advantage of the permanent install is you don't have to deal with the neighbor who wants to "borrow" your generator for a few hours I gave varioous install options thought before I bought the Honda. I actually could have bought a whole-house Guardian at Home Depot for less than the eu6500. It was my 20 year prior experience with Honda generators that made my final choice for me. Lots of people in my area have all-electric homes. Unless they go with a large fixed generator they aren't going to keep warm in the winter. My parents have a log home with a large fire place. Last winter I had to move them over to my place during a 3 day power outage because they could not get their house above 50 degree with the fireplace. They have virtually NO insulation and cathedral ceilings. Looks great, but not very practical, and they have electric furnace with heat pump.






Quote
I'm not sure from your post exactly what you are doing, but if you have constructed a cord such that one end is plugged into the generator, and the other end is a male end that can be plugged into something like an electric dryer outlet/receptacle...those cords are called "suicide cords"

 

[gatchel]

Generator cords can be crafted so that they are no different than an extension cord. If you use the proper portable generator interlock and components, no one is going to die.

I have a Generac EXL7500. Just last week I backed it out of the garage turned the gas on and it fired right up on gasoline that's about 2 years old.

I ran it for about 15 minutes, shut it off, siphoned the gas out and used the old gas to top off the tank on our car. I got some fresh gas, added some Sta-Bil, and it will be good for another two years of "ready to go". I also run the gas out of the carb after every use.

This work fine for me and the wife can do it without problems. She likes the fact that the generator is electric start or rope start.