M1G Z-wave or UPB status feedback

[tpz507]

Hi To all,

I'm a very new cocooner, I've been reading a lot and preparing to do my HA and Sec system for my new home. I am at the point of making the decision of choosing a technology for some of the HA stuff. Mainly thinking so far on either UPB, zwave, or any other wireless technology and M1 as a backbone.

1. What do you guys recommend for door lock status and control? I would like to be able to lock doors wirelessly or to know their status, like front door lock status, back door lock status and close them at will. I saw some z wave lever looks and some deadbolts from Schlage. But reading at the ELK-M1XZW manual, it says that status can not be certain unless the command was sent from the m1, but this manual was printed in 2007, has this changed?.

2. Lighting control: Here comes the point of decision, UPB seems to be the best choice but If I go Zwave (in order to do door lock monitoring), I wouldn't be able to check their status either. Does UPB devices with the M1 broadcast or support status or acknowledge feedback? or it is the same issue as zwave?. Are zwave light control reliable? Can the M1 poll or ask for their status?

I hope I don't bother with this questions, I have many more before buying the system, I appreciate any comments.

 

[bmil]

I can help with parts of your questions and hopefully others will chime in to cover what I couldn't or got incorrect...

1) I'm not that conversant with Zwave as I decided to go with UPB for lighting over Zwave. But I do have my lighting tied into both an M1 and a PC running HomeSeer. I also am interested in adding one of the new Kwikset deadbolt Zwave locks to my setup and know that Zwave locks use a special message format that only a few existing Zwave controllers are compatible with. I don't believe that the Elk M1 is currently compatible with any Zwave controller that can also communicate with Zwave locks. I plan on using HomeSeer, and not the M1, to operate Zwave locks.

2) Although UPB devices do support message acknowledgement (ACK) and status inquiries the M1 unfortunately does not currently support it. The M1 simply sends out a UPB device command and "assumes" that it was received sucessfully. That's why I rely on HomeSeer as my primary UPB controller. The M1 also does not support polling in it's UPB implementation. I don't know anything regarding the M1's Zwave capabilites for lighting.

I hope some of this has been helpful...

 

[dougri]

Can't remember where I read it, but the m1g can get lighting status if you use the leviton serial interface controller (VRC0P-1LW) through the elk serial expander (m1xsp) rather than using the elk z-wave interface. edit: the leviton controller will soon be compatible with the zwave locks... follow it here:

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...&hl=schlage

 

[tpz507]

I can help with parts of your questions and hopefully others will chime in to cover what I couldn't or got incorrect...

1) I'm not that conversant with Zwave as I decided to go with UPB for lighting over Zwave. But I do have my lighting tied into both an M1 and a PC running HomeSeer. I also am interested in adding one of the new Kwikset deadbolt Zwave locks to my setup and know that Zwave locks use a special message format that only a few existing Zwave controllers are compatible with. I don't believe that the Elk M1 is currently compatible with any Zwave controller that can also communicate with Zwave locks. I plan on using HomeSeer, and not the M1, to operate Zwave locks.

2) Although UPB devices do support message acknowledgement (ACK) and status inquiries the M1 unfortunately does not currently support it. The M1 simply sends out a UPB device command and "assumes" that it was received sucessfully. That's why I rely on HomeSeer as my primary UPB controller. The M1 also does not support polling in it's UPB implementation. I don't know anything regarding the M1's Zwave capabilites for lighting.

I hope some of this has been helpful...

Hi Bmil,

Thanks for your feedback, I really appreciate it!!!. I love software but sometimes, my tendency is to try to be out of the way o any SW or PC based system because of reliability/security issues, unless it is linux .

I would like to be able to handle everything from the M1G, the probabilities of a failure between the m1g and a PC are huge, unless you are talking about the homeseer hometroller.
I wonder, if there will be on a near future a firmware upgrade that handles this handshake issues. I would expect that if there are clear tendencies of a market grow on UPB and Zwave, why would ELK wont keep up to date. It could be a very reliable system (no moving parts like hhd's, nor virus issues or temperature issues either) and also good price for what you get and enless possibilities to grow.

You mentioned homeseer, I haven't read too much about it, but if it handles everything, why are you using both systems?, are you using m1g only for security and HA is taking care with homeseer?, would you recommend to use only homeseer as a total solution?
Can homeseer forward the ack back to m1g?

To everyone interested on sharing:
Who can explain me more about dougri mentioned of the leviton VRC0P-1LW how does it works, you jus plug it to a power outlet and it has an serial output to the m1g, how do you configure both to talk to each other and how much can you do, could this be a good solution, it doesn't seem to be expensive.
It seems to be only related to lights but, can you control any zwave device. My apologies for my ignorance on this subject and my lack of english!
I have so many questions but I think it is better to do them on another post.

Thanks to all
T

 

[bmil]

I certainly agree that from a reliability standpoint a hardware only solution would be preferable. Initially the M1 was my sole automation controller running lighting, thermostat and security. I added a PC based controller (HomeSeer) primarily due to frustration over the limitations of the M1's rule engine and the fact that HomeSeer added control over many more types of devices (audio/IR/RFID/1wire/weather/video/power monitoring/etc..) that the M1 could not. I also wanted to add various touchscreen devices with customizable UI's around the house and wasn't overly impressed with the M1's offerings on that.

I hope Elk will eventually add message acknowledgement to UPB. The UPB PIM interfaces to the M1XSP and they would have to add to the firmware. I assume there's enough room for it but I don't have any insight to that. On your question regarding HomeSeer, no, HomeSeer does not add message acknowledgement to the M1, only to UPB messages sent from HomeSeer through the PIM connected to the PC. The limitations of the M1's Rule Engine would make it a nightmare to have HomeSeer relay ACK's to the M1 for processing.

I personally would not use HomeSeer alone. I like having a hardware only controller for basic security devices and control. Plus simple automation capabilities should the PC go down. For example, most lighting is handled by HomeSeer. However, if the PC goes down or the M1 looses contact with HomeSeer I have some basic lighting commands in the M1 that, if the security system is armed, turns various lights on randomly to make the house look lived in. HomeSeer does that normally, but I don't lose that important feature should the PC go down.

 

[tpz507]

Any Elk people that can drop some lines about firmware updates? or work in progress news?

 

[comet48]

Elk is putting all their development effort into their new system. They aren't doing much with the M1(G), as can be seen from the small number of new functions added over the last 18 months.

 

[mustangcoupe]

Elk is putting all their development effort into their new system. They aren't doing much with the M1(G), as can be seen from the small number of new functions added over the last 18 months.

There has been NO official announcement of this, please dont post speculation and get everyone's hopes up

 

[comet48]

Elk is putting all their development effort into their new system. They aren't doing much with the M1(G), as can be seen from the small number of new functions added over the last 18 months.

There has been NO official announcement of this, please dont post speculation and get everyone's hopes up

I talk to support

 

[tpz507]

Elk is putting all their development effort into their new system. They aren't doing much with the M1(G), as can be seen from the small number of new functions added over the last 18 months.

Thanks Comet for your input, but do you have any idea of which new products you are talking about. Should I wait some time before I buy?

Cheers,

T

 

[BDHall]

Elk is putting all their development effort into their new system. They aren't doing much with the M1(G), as can be seen from the small number of new functions added over the last 18 months.

Thanks Comet for your input, but do you have any idea of which new products you are talking about. Should I wait some time before I buy?

Cheers,

T

Elk is normally real quiet about new products except when Spanky chooses to drop us a hint or two.

 

[divemstr]

First, PCS is currently manufacturing a new PIM-E that will connect directly to the M1... this means no expansion board will be needed. They will be ready soon (July 2010).
There are many ways to receive a status back from controlling the lighting... you can program the switch to transmit a link that is a status update and program the m1 to accept and update the icons. You can add in a post commant to verify status on the devices you commanded. UPB is bi-directional and will respond to a query.
Also, using the relay interface you can easily control and door lock, garage door, gate control etc... and you can get status...

 

[ddennerline]

Does this mean that PCS controllers and lights will have equivalent link status updates as compared to HAI? As I understand, HAI’s UPB version can update the status of every load associated with a link. PC HA solutions overcome this limitation by building a network map and querying individual devices after sniffing the link command. Getting Link/Group/Zone/Scene features 100% natively integrated into Elk seems to be a major short coming – unless you use a third party controller (e.g., ISY99i, PC HA Solutions). As mentioned on many other posts, the work around seems to be using two different home automation systems. When I started building my lighting system, it was a tossup between Leviton Vizia+ Z-Wave and PCS UPB. I went with Leviton because of the wide selection of switches and Zone/Scene bi-directional communication.

This new product sounds very interesting. I am still hopeful a native Elk solution that supports bi-directional status updates with 99% accuracy will be developed. The controller must maintain 100% synchronization with the current status of switch regardless of how it was was activated or deactivated.

 

[divemstr]

Does this mean that PCS controllers and lights will have equivalent link status updates as compared to HAI? As I understand, HAI’s UPB version can update the status of every load associated with a link. PC HA solutions overcome this limitation by building a network map and querying individual devices after sniffing the link command. Getting Link/Group/Zone/Scene features 100% natively integrated into Elk seems to be a major short coming – unless you use a third party controller (e.g., ISY99i, PC HA Solutions). As mentioned on many other posts, the work around seems to be using two different home automation systems. When I started building my lighting system, it was a tossup between Leviton Vizia+ Z-Wave and PCS UPB. I went with Leviton because of the wide selection of switches and Zone/Scene bi-directional communication.

This new product sounds very interesting. I am still hopeful a native Elk solution that supports bi-directional status updates with 99% accuracy will be developed. The controller must maintain 100% synchronization with the current status of switch regardless of how it was was activated or deactivated.

... PCS switches have always been able to send status update info. The simplest way is set the Transmit Components to sent status updates back to the controller, the controller is then programmed to receive the links being broadcast. The status information includes light level and device sending the info. Status updates are then sent with every single or double tap along with rocker release.
You can also set up a condition in ELK when XYZ link is received, send query...
If you would like more info or an example video, drop me an email: [email protected]

 

[Digger]

Does this mean that PCS controllers and lights will have equivalent link status updates as compared to HAI? As I understand, HAI’s UPB version can update the status of every load associated with a link. PC HA solutions overcome this limitation by building a network map and querying individual devices after sniffing the link command. Getting Link/Group/Zone/Scene features 100% natively integrated into Elk seems to be a major short coming – unless you use a third party controller (e.g., ISY99i, PC HA Solutions). As mentioned on many other posts, the work around seems to be using two different home automation systems. When I started building my lighting system, it was a tossup between Leviton Vizia+ Z-Wave and PCS UPB. I went with Leviton because of the wide selection of switches and Zone/Scene bi-directional communication.

This new product sounds very interesting. I am still hopeful a native Elk solution that supports bi-directional status updates with 99% accuracy will be developed. The controller must maintain 100% synchronization with the current status of switch regardless of how it was was activated or deactivated.

... PCS switches have always been able to send status update info. The simplest way is set the Transmit Components to sent status updates back to the controller, the controller is then programmed to receive the links being broadcast. The status information includes light level and device sending the info. Status updates are then sent with every single or double tap along with rocker release.
You can also set up a condition in ELK when XYZ link is received, send query...
If you would like more info or an example video, drop me an email: [email protected]

I am interested in this as well. My UPB lighting is flawless since I put it in about 2 years ago after ripping out Insteon. I do admit though that the ISY which kept the ELK up to date is missed. If the ELK can be kept up to date with this new PIM then it will be a perfect system.