Installing 1K resistors on security loops

[programmergeek]

If it is a HAI which it sounds like with 1k resistors or elk just set it up in the software to not use resistors adding them at this point is useless it can be set with the dealer programming software If you need the dealer software for the HAI let me know I bought an extra one by mistake and it was non returnable

 

[PaulD]

If it is a HAI which it sounds like with 1k resistors or elk just set it up in the software to not use resistors adding them at this point is useless it can be set with the dealer programming software If you need the dealer software for the HAI let me know I bought an extra one by mistake and it was non returnable

I have everything I need. I was just debating the pro/con of installing resisters at the panel since I did not get them installed as EOL during construction.

 

[Jreigner]

I am sure this will really get people going, but it really sad to see such a lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms on this site. Not one person has even fully understood the purpose of an EOL on this post. I wonder how many people have wired their smoke detectors improperly to save a few bucks and dont even know it. It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision.
The EOL(or EOLR) stands for End Of Line supervision. Normally open circuits have the resistor at the END of the line-normally open circuits are wired in parallel, thus creating an end. On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end? Real technicians don't need resistors or some homemade tester. Alarm panels are precise devices with response times at 70ms or less. Deal with facts -resistance, voltage and current- its what its all about- your 'red' or 'green' light doesn't cut it.

 

[mustangcoupe]

I am sure this will really get people going, but it really sad to see such a lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms on this site. Not one person has even fully understood the purpose of an EOL on this post. I wonder how many people have wired their smoke detectors improperly to save a few bucks and dont even know it. It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision.
The EOL(or EOLR) stands for End Of Line supervision. Normally open circuits have the resistor at the END of the line-normally open circuits are wired in parallel, thus creating an end. On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end? Real technicians don't need resistors or some homemade tester. Alarm panels are precise devices with response times at 70ms or less. Deal with facts -resistance, voltage and current- its what its all about- your 'red' or 'green' light doesn't cut it.

I think your post here was more for attention, because you are digging up a thread (2 others today also) which is almost a year old, and criticizing the entire membership of this site. More then one person here told the OP that if the EOL resistor is in the wrong place (not EOL) it is not doing it's job. Now as you state "It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision." what is worse disabling it or putting the resistor in the box? I have seen meny professional installers do this, which is not right also. So there are many security professionals who "lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms" all of your posts today (3 of your total 9 since joining) are negative. From your profile.... "I am a level IV NICET certified fire alarm engineer".....With your knowledge of alarms and systems please try to add to the value of CT and not just dig up old threads to post negative comments, with no real help to other members.

...off my soap box

 

[sic0048]

I am sure this will really get people going, but it really sad to see such a lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms on this site. Not one person has even fully understood the purpose of an EOL on this post. I wonder how many people have wired their smoke detectors improperly to save a few bucks and dont even know it. It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision.
The EOL(or EOLR) stands for End Of Line supervision. Normally open circuits have the resistor at the END of the line-normally open circuits are wired in parallel, thus creating an end. On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end? Real technicians don't need resistors or some homemade tester. Alarm panels are precise devices with response times at 70ms or less. Deal with facts -resistance, voltage and current- its what its all about- your 'red' or 'green' light doesn't cut it.

While I appreciate your obvious knowledge of the industry (you are obviously an installer) your general attitude in your first 9 posts is pretty argumentative IMHO. So forgive us if we don't know as much as you - clearly you are an expert and we are all a bunch of idiots.

PS - there is no need to bring up 10 month old post just to prove how much of an expert you are either IMHO. I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity for that in the days, weeks and months ahead.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I am sure this will really get people going, but it really sad to see such a lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms on this site. Not one person has even fully understood the purpose of an EOL on this post. I wonder how many people have wired their smoke detectors improperly to save a few bucks and dont even know it. It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision.
The EOL(or EOLR) stands for End Of Line supervision. Normally open circuits have the resistor at the END of the line-normally open circuits are wired in parallel, thus creating an end. On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end? Real technicians don't need resistors or some homemade tester. Alarm panels are precise devices with response times at 70ms or less. Deal with facts -resistance, voltage and current- its what its all about- your 'red' or 'green' light doesn't cut it.

Hi Jreigner;

Can you please expand a bit on your statement:

On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end?

Are you stating that for a normally closed security contact, there is no reason to place the EOL resistor near the end of the contact?

Kindest regards,

BSR

 

[Jreigner]

I am sure this will really get people going, but it really sad to see such a lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms on this site. Not one person has even fully understood the purpose of an EOL on this post. I wonder how many people have wired their smoke detectors improperly to save a few bucks and dont even know it. It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision.
The EOL(or EOLR) stands for End Of Line supervision. Normally open circuits have the resistor at the END of the line-normally open circuits are wired in parallel, thus creating an end. On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end? Real technicians don't need resistors or some homemade tester. Alarm panels are precise devices with response times at 70ms or less. Deal with facts -resistance, voltage and current- its what its all about- your 'red' or 'green' light doesn't cut it.

I think your post here was more for attention, because you are digging up a thread (2 others today also) which is almost a year old, and criticizing the entire membership of this site. More then one person here told the OP that if the EOL resistor is in the wrong place (not EOL) it is not doing it's job. Now as you state "It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision." what is worse disabling it or putting the resistor in the box? I have seen meny professional installers do this, which is not right also. So there are many security professionals who "lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms" all of your posts today (3 of your total 9 since joining) are negative. From your profile.... "I am a level IV NICET certified fire alarm engineer".....With your knowledge of alarms and systems please try to add to the value of CT and not just dig up old threads to post negative comments, with no real help to other members.

...off my soap box

Ok, first isn't your reply for attention also? One thread started a year ago and was never correctly answered. "It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision." what is worse disabling it or putting the resistor in the box?"-what is worse is this is a tech forum with a "i tried and i don't know why it works but it do" approach to troubleshooting. I do agree my post was more than some(obviously some more than others)could digest. The term professional installer does not automatically mean right, it only means somebody out there is give them a truck and health care to show up. Boo-hoo if I havent posted more than nine times and I think you better recheck my posts because they were not all negative in fact, i don't believe you offered a free installation manual to anyone did you? I do agree and will turn the negativity off, however, I would hope the bar would be raised, not lowered and praised around here.

 

[Jreigner]

I am sure this will really get people going, but it really sad to see such a lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms on this site. Not one person has even fully understood the purpose of an EOL on this post. I wonder how many people have wired their smoke detectors improperly to save a few bucks and dont even know it. It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision.
The EOL(or EOLR) stands for End Of Line supervision. Normally open circuits have the resistor at the END of the line-normally open circuits are wired in parallel, thus creating an end. On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end? Real technicians don't need resistors or some homemade tester. Alarm panels are precise devices with response times at 70ms or less. Deal with facts -resistance, voltage and current- its what its all about- your 'red' or 'green' light doesn't cut it.

While I appreciate your obvious knowledge of the industry (you are obviously an installer) your general attitude in your first 9 posts is pretty argumentative IMHO. So forgive us if we don't know as much as you - clearly you are an expert and we are all a bunch of idiots.

PS - there is no need to bring up 10 month old post just to prove how much of an expert you are either IMHO. I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity for that in the days, weeks and months ahead.

Ahem. I am not an installer, but Ive played one on tv.
"So forgive us if we don't know as much as you - clearly you are an expert and we are all a bunch of idiots." I can forgive those who dont know, I just cant forgive those who act they do. By the way isnt your post "pretty argumentative IMHO"? Please read my previous reply to understand why i replied to an old post. Your welcome.

 

[Jreigner]

I am sure this will really get people going, but it really sad to see such a lack of understanding on the fundamentals of alarms on this site. Not one person has even fully understood the purpose of an EOL on this post. I wonder how many people have wired their smoke detectors improperly to save a few bucks and dont even know it. It shouldn't even be an option to disable the zone supervision.
The EOL(or EOLR) stands for End Of Line supervision. Normally open circuits have the resistor at the END of the line-normally open circuits are wired in parallel, thus creating an end. On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end? Real technicians don't need resistors or some homemade tester. Alarm panels are precise devices with response times at 70ms or less. Deal with facts -resistance, voltage and current- its what its all about- your 'red' or 'green' light doesn't cut it.

Hi Jreigner;

Can you please expand a bit on your statement:

On a normally closed circuit the EOL has no exact placement- it is not for finding faults. If a circuit breaks on a normally closed circuit(series circuit) which is the beginning and which is the end?

Are you stating that for a normally closed security contact, there is no reason to place the EOL resistor near the end of the contact?

Kindest regards,

BSR

I would love to expand on this. Thank you for your pleasant response.

What I am saying is this. (and yes people can quote this and use it on the final exam)Understand that an alarm panel(an analog circuit-not multiplex or digital addressable bus) uses current, not just voltage or those silly little brown things called resistors to determine the status of its zone or point. There are only three states for your zone, normal, shorted or open. The shorted state is easiest to determine, especially when the panel knows what voltage to expect. The open circuit is found when there is no resistance(no resistor to turn voltage in to current) and the normal state is obtained by a nice little balance in between of voltage and resistance. That being said, "Are you stating that for a normally closed security contact, there is no reason to place the EOL resistor near the end of the contact" how is the end of the contact the end of the circuit in a series(or what has been called a normally closed)circuit. See it doesnt matter if this is a fire circuit, panic circuit, burg switch or whatever. The resistor must be placed appropriately to supervise the circuit in a way it cant be defeated or circumvented. Is the resistor at the end of the contact in a public environment the place to put it or maybe will it still supervise the series circuit tucked nicely back in the control panel? Dont forget burg zones are only armed when needed(except for day zones i know) and can be shunted very easily. So my question is what is the point of a disable EOL feature in a panel? Is it the I give up mode? This is where think from. I hope that helps.

 

[mustangcoupe]

Jreigner,

Thank You for your detailed productive response to BSR's question, I do agree that all zones "should" be supervised, but in cases where someone is replacing a system which may not have EOLR's already in place or at the box I believe that is an instance depending on the configuration of the type of zone where not putting EOLR's in place and having the option to disable it is beneficial. It gives the DIY user the option to do it correctly at a later date and not have an unprotected home.

 

[pipeman]

Not stirring, but a couple points.
There are a lot of Elk users here and a lot of DIY'ers.
Only by being active in this community, is it any fun.
If the people with imperfect knowledge were excluded, I'd be out.
There are many, many knowledgeable people here, some not so. I really don't think anyone is or can be a master of all.

Also,
I think most of this thread related to an Elk panel, or at least there were a lot of Elk savvy people offering advice. Some things are different with Elk than other panels.
The Elk can actually handle 4 states, not just three.
I don't think the Elk finds it any easier to correctly identify any one state over the other.
With the ELK, it is indeed called an EOLR - "End of line resistor".
The resistor at the end of line is the only sure way to supervise the wiring from the panel to the switch.

 

[sic0048]

The resistor must be placed appropriately to supervise the circuit in a way it cant be defeated or circumvented. Is the resistor at the end of the contact in a public environment the place to put it or maybe will it still supervise the series circuit tucked nicely back in the control panel? Dont forget burg zones are only armed when needed(except for day zones i know) and can be shunted very easily. So my question is what is the point of a disable EOL feature in a panel? Is it the I give up mode? This is where think from. I hope that helps.

I think I would agree with you. But the point people were making before is that it is better to not have a resistor and therefore not have a supervised circuit than to put the resistor at the panel (the beginning of the circuit). Any wiring located after the resistor is not actually monitored, so putting the resistor at the panel is a complete waste for two reasons: 1) It gives a false sense of security that the circuit is "monitored" when in fact the entire wiring of the circuit falls after the resistor and therefore is not monitored. 2) It creates a potential point of failure without contibuting to the effectiveness of the system.

So it has been the advise many times on this forum that in a residential setting, you should either correctly place the EOL resistor at the end of the circuit (or as closely as possible to the end) or simply not use them at all.

 

[Jreigner]

Not stirring, but a couple points.
There are a lot of Elk users here and a lot of DIY'ers.
Only by being active in this community, is it any fun.
If the people with imperfect knowledge were excluded, I'd be out.
There are many, many knowledgeable people here, some not so. I really don't think anyone is or can be a master of all.

Also,
I think most of this thread related to an Elk panel, or at least there were a lot of Elk savvy people offering advice. Some things are different with Elk than other panels.
The Elk can actually handle 4 states, not just three.
I don't think the Elk finds it any easier to correctly identify any one state over the other.
With the ELK, it is indeed called an EOLR - "End of line resistor".
The resistor at the end of line is the only sure way to supervise the wiring from the panel to the switch.

what is the fourth state you are referring to?

 

[Jreigner]

The resistor must be placed appropriately to supervise the circuit in a way it cant be defeated or circumvented. Is the resistor at the end of the contact in a public environment the place to put it or maybe will it still supervise the series circuit tucked nicely back in the control panel? Dont forget burg zones are only armed when needed(except for day zones i know) and can be shunted very easily. So my question is what is the point of a disable EOL feature in a panel? Is it the I give up mode? This is where think from. I hope that helps.

I think I would agree with you. But the point people were making before is that it is better to not have a resistor and therefore not have a supervised circuit than to put the resistor at the panel (the beginning of the circuit). Any wiring located after the resistor is not actually monitored, so putting the resistor at the panel is a complete waste for two reasons: 1) It gives a false sense of security that the circuit is "monitored" when in fact the entire wiring of the circuit falls after the resistor and therefore is not monitored. 2) It creates a potential point of failure without contibuting to the effectiveness of the system.

So it has been the advise many times on this forum that in a residential setting, you should either correctly place the EOL resistor at the end of the circuit (or as closely as possible to the end) or simply not use them at all.

please note i agree only in the context of a parallel circuit, a series circuit is irrelevant.

 

[pipeman]

Never tried to attach anything before....
From the Elk Manual