Has anyone put in-wall speakers in a spray foam (icynene) insulated exterior wall? How did you make

[rocketmonkeys]

I have some 2x6 framed exterior walls that will get icynene spray foam insulation.  The insulator is planning on filling the cavities (5.5" inches).  But I also wanted to put some in-wall speakers in those walls (in the living room).
 
I'm planning on some monoprice in-wall speakers (nothing special, decent sound, cheap), part #6816.  The cutout for those is listed as 3.6" deep.  It seems like I could have them only spray 2" of foam behind where the speakers are going to go, carve a tiny bit where the speaker itself will touch, and have enough room to mount them.
 
- I'll only get 2" of insulation vs. 5.5".  Maybe this is ok for a very small amount of the wall, esp. since the foam is a good air-barrier, so infiltration wont be as much of a problem.
 
- I'll get a very small volume for the speaker, vs the normal full-wall cavity w/ fiberglass batting.  However, that may be a good thing, since most people seem to recommend boxing in the speakers for better sound anyway.
 
Has anyone run into this problem before?  How did you deal with it?  It seems like my plan is ok, just curious what others have done.  Thanks!

 

[oberkc]

While I have not dealt with this concern, I see no reason not to simply fill the cavity as normal, and simply remove unneeded material when the time comes to install the speaker. This stuff should cut fine with any handsaw, knife, or oscillating tool.

 

[apostolakisl]

While I have not dealt with this concern, I see no reason not to simply fill the cavity as normal, and simply remove unneeded material when the time comes to install the speaker. This stuff should cut fine with any handsaw, knife, or oscillating tool.

 
Actually it "cuts" just fine by grabbing it with the bare hand.  It is very soft, kind of like tearing apart a piece of popcorn.  The closed cell foam on the other hand requires a saw.

 

[rocketmonkeys]

Good to know it'll be easy to remove the foam.  I wonder how I can make sure I don't remove too much & break the vapor/air barrier - maybe just ask them to foam less in those cavities, so I don't have to remove any foam later?  Thankfully, I just decided to limit the in-wall speakers to 2 on that exterior wall, which should be a bit nicer.  I'll leave out the center channel, and forgo the in-wall sub (and use a "hidden" one in the media cabinet instead).

 

[tmbrown97]

Have them fill the wall like normal then just carve out what you need; if you need to fill/patch, it should be easy enough.  Just take your time and don't get antsy while carving out your space.  In the end, it should help improve sound - but keep in mind, there'll be variable sound pressure in that cavity that may very well break down the soft foam insulation over time.  If it were me, I'd look at carving in a back-box made of rigid plastic.

 

[Big517]

I ctherth

 

[apostolakisl]

Good to know it'll be easy to remove the foam.  I wonder how I can make sure I don't remove too much & break the vapor/air barrier - maybe just ask them to foam less in those cavities, so I don't have to remove any foam later?  Thankfully, I just decided to limit the in-wall speakers to 2 on that exterior wall, which should be a bit nicer.  I'll leave out the center channel, and forgo the in-wall sub (and use a "hidden" one in the media cabinet instead).

 
Open cell foam is not a vapor barrier.  Vapor will slowly diffuse through open cell.  So your builder will use something else for vapor if indeed it is necessary.
 
But you don't need to worry about breaking the air barrier.  Your speaker would be in the middle of a wall where there aren't any seams, the foam will leave behind a layer where it stuck to the wall, and even if you did open it up, it would be such a small break in the air seal that it would be totally irrelevant.  

 

[Del91574]

The more common speaker vendors sell a baffle kit to create space where the speaker mounts to avoid all of this. I know some of the auto speaker installation places offer a poly speaker surround to help keep drivers dry in autos, it might be worthwhile to cobble somthing like this up for your speakers to cut the labor/effort down.

 

[Kevin L]

Lou is correct about the Icynene. I have it in my home. It is an open cell foam so vapor and water will pass right through. We used Tyvek as the vapor barrier.
 
Though Iceyne is very easy to carve out by hand, I prefer the idea of the back box, and seal any seams there may be. Not only will this be a tighter installation, you'll have uniform sound pressure for all the speakers (of like kind) since the volume behind the speakers will all be the same.
 
You'll love Icynene. I'm starting to design my next home, and will definitely install it again.
 
Kevin

 

[mdesmarais]

Lou is correct about the Icynene. I have it in my home. It is an open cell foam so vapor and water will pass right through. We used Tyvek as the vapor barrier.

I hope you mean as a moisture barrier- I don't think Tyvek is a vapor barrier- it is a breathble membrane...

 

[Kevin L]

I hope you mean as a moisture barrier- I don't think Tyvek is a vapor barrier- it is a breathble membrane...

 
The trouble with trying to check forums while at work. Have to rush sometimes.
 
Yes, Tyvek Home Wrap is a water and air barrier. It does breathe, allowing moisture in the walls to dry out. In Florida, with its hot, humid weather, you do not want to use a vapor barrier. I used the Tyvek on the second floor, that was frame. Then the cavities of the exterior frame walls were filled with Icynene.
 
On the first floor, constructed with concrete block, no wrap on the outside. We used Dow Styrofoam Blue Board on the interior side of the block.
 
My next home will only be one-story. If I did a two-story again, I would have done both floors in block, because of the windows. In designing the home (first time I did it) I didn't take into account the look of the windows. In the block, they are recessed; in the frame, they are flanged to the exterior, so they windows appear differently on the exterior.
 
Here are some photos:
 
Tyvek Home Wrap over Frame Wall

 
Dow Styrofoam over Interior Side of Concrete Block

 
Icyene in Frame Wall

 
Difference in Windows on Masonry First Floor and Frame Second Floor

 
Kevin

 

[pete_c]

Here in the midwest and in Florida I didn't do anything special with speakers that were on outside walls.  The sound is OK to my old ears.  In FL the ceilings are all 9 foot and I did mount the wall speakers up higher than I probably should have. 
 
I have though replaced the outdoor by the pool lanai in the ceiling speakers twice as even though they are outdoor/indoor and much plastic; the salty air had messed them up.
 
Concurrent with the 16/2 & 16/4 speaker wiring I did wire cat5e to wall plates for any controls of audio if needed (and I have used them).
 
Basically I did each room is ==> Speakers (16/2 wires) X 2 ==> room gang box with 16/2 X 2 wires going to 16/4 wires plus cat5e ==> speaker "patch panel" in comm closet.  Just for the family room in the midwest I used in ceiling, externally mounted wall and free standing speakers and wired for such.  In Florida I did similiar using the high ceilings in the great room for ceiling surround sound speakers (different set up than the zoned per room speakers).  Both too are wired / configured with subwoofer setups.  Both subwoofer setups also have an added 120VAC for power (if needed) outlets.
 
During construction in Florida I asked about utilizing a Dryvit exterior finish (EIFS) as I had used it for an office building in the midwest and was impressed.  The contractor wasn't familiar with its use and just did the typical FL stucco finish.  That said I had to paint it after 10 years and it was cracking in a few places.  In the midwest the Dryvit finish held up really well and I never had issues with it.  It was painstakingly time consuming in the midwest (to me it was) as much of the contruction was in the winter such that the building needed to be kind of wrapped to install the Dryvit exterior finish.
 
In Florida the house is an "elevated" (FEMA new building codes) ranch.  The blocks go up to right under the roof line around the circumference of the house.  The PITA part of the endeavor was that the original pool was at sea level in a lanai surrounded by the home; and large.  The new rebuilt pool was elevated and smaller along with the Lanai.  That said the pool pumps and filters are at ground level and I have had issues with water pressures messing with the pool stuff.

 

[Kevin L]

I didn't install any inwall speakers. For the whole home audio, I have all ceiling speakers, except for the two outside on the lanai and by the pool. Those two are mounted on the wall. Most of the speakers are dual-voicecoil speakers since they are listened to from various locations. In the home office and the exercise room, I have pairs of speakers, as the listening location is fairly constant in those two rooms.
 
In the family room, I have 7.2 surround setup. The TV is mounted on an exterior wall that's concrete block. For the LCR speakers, I mounted them on the wall. For the other surround speakers, they are mounted in the ceiling 10' high. Not ideal, but a much cleaner install. I used a backbox for all the ceiling speakers. I used Quietrock sound-deadening sheetrock in the ceiling of the family room since part of the master suite is above the room. This way I don't have to turn down the volume when my wife goes to bed. I do have to turn down the subwoofer though. It's much more difficult to quiet low-frequency sound.
 
Pete - you're lucky you didn't do EIFS in FL. I've been an insurance agent for almost forty years, both in NY and here in FL. For most of the companies we write homeowners insurance with, EIFS is a dealbreaker - we can't write these homes. My son bought a home with EIFS in NJ last year, and a number of companies would not write the insurance.
 
Kevin

 

[pete_c]

Kevin,
 
I watched a section of one building while they installed the Drivet.  It was multiple steps with expansion joints etc.  I could see if there was some damage ever to occur it would be difficult to repair.
 
Curious why you cannot write insurance on EIFS?  Personally I always believed it was the "end all" solution to stucco.

 

[rocketmonkeys]

I've narrowed it down to 2 speakers (L & R) just below the TV on the exterior wall, mounted horizontally.
 
I'm not sure if you can make it out here, but they're the two white rectangles under the tv:

 
That should be fine to just carve out a little for each speaker.  I'm not going for audiophile here, just 1) nicer than TV sound, plus 2) no wires, no visible speakers.  I'd rather keep that room clean if I can.
 
Add in 2 ceiling mount round 6.5" cones behind the couch (tweeters angled forward) and a hidden 8" sub (built into that TV hutch, most likely).  Should be fun.
 
Seems like having the icynene there might even act as a bit of sound barrier, emulating the effects of a built-in box?  Still debating whether I need  to put in a real rough-in box there.  The Monoprice speakers don't include brackets or boxes.  Are there universal fit speaker back boxes for this type of application?  That could be useful.