ELK Integration with ISY/Insteon

[foxtail22]

This past weekend, I installed an ISY994i/Insteon 2413s kit to integrate my Insteon network with my ELK to allow me to control my Insteon network using my ELK. I had previously used HouseLinc to control my Insteon network but I wanted to consolidate my Insteon with my ELK and to control both my security and Insteon Network from the ELK so sensors could be shared to achieve addition automation cababilities without having to double up sensors on some doors, etc.

The first surprise was that the 2413s PLM and the Houselinc PLM refused to recognize each other which made for link issues. I findly had to take the HouseLinc PLM off line to get anywhere.

The installation involved a huge learning curve to learn how the ISY operates and how it interfaces with Insteon and ELK. I felt the ISY could use updating of its user interface compared to HouseLinc or the ELK. It felt like it is a generation behind on ease of use, and user interface presentation. The interface should be more intuitive, and less cryptic, in its status and diagnostic reporting. After a nearly 2 day effort, I was able to prevail and get the ELK to control my Insteon network and duplicate the program actions that I had been using in HouseLinc.

My biggest current issue/concern is that the ELK network module(M1EXP) seems to only support one IP session at at time so if I open the RP program which I often do to check status of the ELK, the control of the insteon network stops. This is a particular issue for rules that use Sunset or Sunrise because if those triggers are missed, it fails to execute those Insteon commands so things like the evening scene fail to execute.

I am using the encrypted port in the M1EXP for my RP program, and have enabled and forwarded the unincrypted port and have the ISY coming in on that port. I set up a separate user and access code for the ISY to avoid any possible conflict there, but the RP logon stops the ISY session. Communication with the ISY and the Insteon network resumes once I log off of the RP application.

Any one have any ideas? Is there something I'm missing or is this the way it is with the M1EXP?

 

[wuench]

The M1XEP supports multiple IP sessions at a time, but it does not allow them while ElkRP is open, ElkRP is a special case. That's just the way it works, a command is sent out over the ASCII sessions telling other devices the Elk is being programmed. ElkRP is not really a tool for day to day use. You need to find another tool to view your Elk status, like ElkRM, eKeypad, etc.

As far as the issues you had with multiple PLMs, that is an Insteon issue, groups are locally significant in Insteon so one PLM's groups/scenes are not the same as another PLMs groups scenes (nor are they the same a keypad's scenes etc). So when you create a scene which has multiple controllers you actually need to duplicate a lot of it. That has to all be done manually on in Houselinc, but the ISY guys use some tricks to try to take care of a lot of that behind the scenes. Powerhome is the only other app that I know of that does similar "magic". It's not like X10, UPB, Zwave where a group is the same group for the whole network across controllers.

So even if the ISY's interface is a little ugly, it is actually better at programming your network. If I were you I would wipe out all the programming and rebuild your rules on the ISY from scratch. The ISY can be a little low level and I agree there are some issues with that, but it really is the best tool out there IMHO. Insteon is a really difficult protocol to work with, it is slow, buggy, and the locally significant group thing makes it non-intuitive for users.

 

[foxtail22]

Thanks Wuench, you confirmed what I suspected was the case. I have RM and eKeypad but RP I have used RP because it left me loot at the input levels such as the voltage values on my analog inputs, etc.

It is interesting that they shut the external interactions since they let the ELK execute rules involving its own sensors with RP running.

Regarding the PLM, I did understand that to be an Insteon issue. I was hoping to be able to use HouseLinc to do some things like set parameters in the Insteon devices because it provided good access to devices at the configuration level.

 

[wuench]

I really wouldn't use both Houselinc and ISY together to program. If there is something specific feature-wise I would post on the ISY forum, there may be a way to do what you need already and if not they are very good with feature requests. It is hard to find stuff sometimes in their interface...

 

[apostolakisl]

I agree with wuench on everything he has said.

There really is no reason to use houselinc and ISY. ISY is a better Insteon controller and should do everything that houslinc can do. If you think there is something that ISY is failing to do for you, post it, I bet-ya it can be done. There is also the UD forum where these things are answered all the time.

If it were me, I would go through and factory reset every device in your house and rebuild your scenes from scratch in ISY. While ISY can spider your network and bring all the links in, it really is just better to have a clean ISY created setup. Orphan links, mystery links, missing links are all fairly common when trying to convert from one system to another. Before wiping the system, however, make an ISY backup of everything as it is now. You can restore the PLM and devices using ISY to the old if you want. EDIT: scratch the part about ISY restoring the PLM, I just remembered that you have a different PLM for houslinc.

ISY will show all the Elk voltages. This requires the Elk module for ISY which, if you don't already have it, I highly suggest you get. You will find that ISY can get your Elk to do a lot of things that Elk rules can't even get it to do. Plus the folder trees of organizing programs is so much better than Elk.

ISY has its quirks. You will bitch and moan I am sure because of these quirks (I did). ISY is different on how it manages some issues as compared to some other software. Different doesn't make it bad, it just means you have to learn it. And I understand why that annoys people, it annoyed me at first too. But after 3 years, I would never do it any other way. And UD is the best support company I have ever seen in my life. And they keep upping the firmware all the time. And they respond to suggestions for improvements by often times actually adding them. The last thing is that (if you have a 994i), you will be able to add a zwave or zigbee radio should you decide to.

 

[gatchel]

The difference between the ISY and Houselinc is that when HL was new, it didn't really work that well as compared to other solutions like Powerhome and ISY (Just like most other new Insteon items in the early days). ISY also made up for issues (bugs) in the smarthome devices and on some devices, lack of features.

Also the ISY does not require a PC to be running 24/7 to make things happen. That worth a ton, IMHO.

 

[foxtail22]

Thanks guys for all the inputs. I know the ISY is a very capable product and it has much more capability than I am likely to every need. My goal was to consolidate everything under one controller, including my security functions, fire alarm, and home automation. The HouseLinc was working fine for me. The ISY is a computer, For me, it was not an issue because i have both a WHS based web server and a Win 7 system I use as a backup server and they run 24/7. I had HousLinc running on the Win 7 system. I have about 4Gb of files in the form of 60000 photos, 20000 songs, and over 1000 videos that I maintain on a triple server setup to avoid any loss if any of them fail. I use Genie Timeline to maintain a shadow copy of everything on my PC in near real time.

I bought the ISY because it was the best way to connect the Insteon network to the ELK. I currently have not implemented any program statements in the ISY and it functions as an intelligent Insteon interface. I felt it was expensive overkill but it was the only solution being actively recommended by both ELK and the Insteon folks. I assumed that the reason for recommending the ISY is because with Inseton, the devil is in the details and the ISY deals with a lot of them. I descirbed it to a friend as using a 10lb sledge to kill a fly but in this case, it was a big fly.

When I did the research on a system that would let me consolidate everything, which was my overall goal, I eventually settled on the ELK and I am happy with that decision. I converted my fire and security controls to the ELK and then put the ISY in to connect the Insteon network. This integration also lets me use my security sensors in my automation tasks. So far, I have not found anything that the ELK program rules can't handle. Currently, I have the following events implemented in my ELK M1G:
1. 38 security zones, 2 Keypads
2. 3 fire/smoke zones
3. Closes garage doors and shed door if open for 10 minutes and sends email
4. Monitors level in my heating oil tank and sends email notification when it needs refilling
5. Provides notification of startup and shutdown of my backup generator and sends email to monitor the exercise cycle.
6. Sends email if any of 20 fault conditions occurs in my backup generator.
7. Monitors temp under my weather station rain collector an sends email notificaiton if the heater fails which could risk freeze up.
8. Monitors temp in house and sends email notification if furnace fails which could risk freeze up of the house.
9. Controls 20 device Insteon network with both time based and motion controlled lighting to support ease of living.

 

[JustCurious]

foxtail22,

Curious how you have ELK monitor oil tank level. After having a near miss at my summer house last week I am looking for the ways to detect when refill is needed and set a rule to send email. Could you share specifics on how you accomplished it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Alex.

 

[elvisimprsntr]

A few tips...
I have both the Elk and ISY994i+Elk add on. I use the Elk rules for event based control which never change. I control lights from the Elk using scenes, not individual lights. This way I can change what lights are in a scene without having to touch the Elk. I use the ISY for time based events since it is easier to access and tweak. Also the Elk never seems to get DST right which will be off for a week proceeding or following DST switch. And no it's not my settings. It's a known systemic issue with the Elk.

 

[apostolakisl]

foxtail22,

Curious how you have ELK monitor oil tank level. After having a near miss at my summer house last week I am looking for the ways to detect when refill is needed and set a rule to send email. Could you share specifics on how you accomplished it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Alex.

 
A "no touch" way to monitor fluid levels is to use a pressure transducer.  Freescale makes one that is inexpensive that is 1 to 1.5 psi which can measure several feet of fluid depth.
 
With the tank empty or if there is a valve that you can close, you put a t-piece in your draw tube that comes off at or near the bottom somewhere to the side of the tank.  To the t-piece attache a piece of pipe and run it straight up to a level that is a few inches above the top of the tank.  You put a nipple on the top of that tube and connect the transducer with a short piece of tubing.  Vacuum tubing from the auto part store works well for this.  Then when fluid is put in the tank, it will partially fill the tube compressing the air in the tube and raising the pressure in the tube.  The pressure transducer will read the pressure and report a value between .2 and 4.8v as the pressure increases.  You fill the tank and note the pressure when full.  Then it is just a linear scale between that number and .2 from full to empty.
 
You can use an Elk zone to measure the voltage off of that transducer and have it send you an email when it gets below some number.
 
Total cost for a project like this probably is in the $35 range.  The transducer is about $20 as a one-off purchase including shipping from digi-key, and the iron pipe t-piece, a few feet of pipe, a nipple, and vacuum tube should cost but another $10 or $20.
 
I've seen people describe using ultrasound to measure the distance to the fluid from a fixed point (like the fill port).  Also a float of some sort would work.  Probably both of those cost more, and may or may not be more work depending on if you can buy a pre-made purpose built device.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I don't want to go off topic to much, but did you look at using an ultrasonic sensor for the oil level, such as the MaxBotix?

 

[gatchel]

foxtail22,

Curious how you have ELK monitor oil tank level. After having a near miss at my summer house last week I am looking for the ways to detect when refill is needed and set a rule to send email. Could you share specifics on how you accomplished it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Alex.

Add me to the curious list...