Newbie looking for input and suggestions

I am new to the forum, and the world of automation, but my wife and I are going to be building a new home (expect to start in approx 6 months) and I want to install a DIY automation system.

I am fairly comfortable with electrical connections, and have done a fair bit of electrical and home theater work over the years.

Here is my list of desires:

HVAC - 3 zones (3 thermostats)

Audio - 6 zones (something like a Niles ZR-6)

Cameras - 1 (door bell/camera unit) - may expand to 2 or 3 cameras eventually

Security - 21 total sensors (4 door contacts, 7 window contacts, 5 motion sensors, 5 glass break sensors)

Lighting - 46 to 50 total dimmers (some 2-way, some 3-way, one 4-way possibly)

Keypads - 2 touchscreen, 1 keypad

I have researches INSTEON, X10, Z-WAVE and am looking for the most cost effective, flexible, and easy to install/program system.

My quick cost research has me leaning to using X10 dimmer switches, and the rest would be INSTEON, but I am concerned about durability with X10.

Comments, thoughts, feelings, are all welcome!

Thanks!

No, you don't want x10! Anything would be better than x10.

Hi Lou,

From a cost perspective, an X10 dimmer is $25 each, INSTEON is $45 each. That's an extra $1000 in dimmers.

I, of course, want performance and durability, and if X10 is as bad as I've read, it may be worth it.

Except you will end up not using your x10 becuase it will be so inundated with failed communications from power line noise and signal suckers. Going wtih x10 at this point would be like buying a pre-pentium pc. Plus the switches are very chincy. Go ahead and buy a couple and see what you think.

Also, Insteon will almost certainly go on sale for 20% off at Christmas as they do every year so suddenly the price is not so different. And the difference is night and day. With a system as large as you are planning, you will need to get a good centralized controller. For Insteon that would be an ISY.

Gotcha. X10 has been removed from my list.

I like the ISY, and will do some more research on it. Any recommendation on which model I should get?

Any reco's on security, camera, touchscreens (can't seem to find any in-wall versions), thermostats?

Thanks!

I am building a new house similar (except twice as many inputs and sensors) ... check my thread "big home automation", it has some 6 new 1080p wifi/ethernet cameras that I just posted on it.
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/18982-big-home-automation-project-2011/page__st__75

Have you also looked at lutron, control4, smart-hdl for 110V stuff. I'm guessing you can't use mode, nor clipsal, nor phillips, nor NXP, nor Osram since you are in 110V part of the world?

Touchscreens, you can use an ipad2 and attached it to the wall (ipad2 prices were just dropped, good value for money).. there is some wall brackets here: or you can buy a 7inch android tablet for $70 or 10inch android tablet for $130. The best ipad wall dock stations I could find for you are these ones: www.launchport.com

I am building my own controller, because the cheapest one I could find was $2500, if you have some programming skills you could help me build one, I'm programming it on Android
www.evoscan.com/home

hmm, Insteon light switches are some of the ugliest switches I've seen in my life..


Clipsal is much much nicer..

also take a look at Vantage for a system, they are good too..

here is some links about the touchscreen install to the wall.. best to inset and hid the charger plug inside the wall, thats what I'm gonna do.
http://youtu.be/Ytm1ENKnZps
http://youtu.be/UFflBRxtkag

NZH - you're a tough audience! I don't even like insteon, but those switches look a tad better than what's already installed in all US homes by default, so it's not all that bad. Your recommendations are generally towards extreme-DIY solutions that are more in-depth than what about 95% of the people I see come across this board would want. Not to shoot anything down - but just sayin', most people want things more out-of-the-box.

Most people here like either the HAI or the Elk security systems; both have embedded touchscreen options worth looking into.

For lighting, I like UPB personally (read my signature link); Lou pushes Insteon hard; Z-Wave is the fastest growing (each have their own issues).

When you say 3 zones, is that a 3-zone single system, or three separate HVAC systems? There's a big difference and I'll save my typing for your answer.

Work2Play said:

NZH - you're a tough audience! I don't even like insteon, but those switches look a tad better than what's already installed in all US homes by default, so it's not all that bad. Your recommendations are generally towards extreme-DIY solutions that are more in-depth than what about 95% of the people I see come across this board would want. Not to shoot anything down - but just sayin', most people want things more out-of-the-box.

Most people here like either the HAI or the Elk security systems; both have embedded touchscreen options worth looking into.

For lighting, I like UPB personally (read my signature link); Lou pushes Insteon hard; Z-Wave is the fastest growing (each have their own issues).

When you say 3 zones, is that a 3-zone single system, or three separate HVAC systems? There's a big difference and I'll save my typing for your answer.

Click to expand...

Now now, I don't exactly push it hard. I just think it gets a little excessively bashed by people, many of whom don't even have it.

As time goes on, zwave seems to get more options and a bit less expensive. UD tells me that they are working on a zwave radio for the ISY, though it is not imminent. Should that actually occur, I would probably start putting some zwave stuff in my home.

But I definitely agree that the New Zealand dude is a bit harsh. Insteon switches (one of the devices he pictured isn't even a switch at all and the other is the "budget switch") look like decora switches. The "touch" is much more refined than a real decora switch. But here is a very major point, start throwing those crazy ass switches pictured by the down under guy and your cleaning lady (or worse yet, your mother inlaw) won't know what the hell to do when she wants to turn the light on. Insteon switches work just like normal to your visiting guests, but do so much more when understodd.

Lou Apo said:

start throwing those crazy ass switches pictured by the down under guy and your cleaning lady (or worse yet, your mother inlaw) won't know what the hell to do when she wants to turn the light on. Insteon switches work just like normal to your visiting guests, but do so much more when understodd.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I like most about my automation system. A housesitter or family member can work my house just like normal and think nothing of it; while my wife and I have all kinds of added convenience.

And yeah - I'm pretty dead against Insteon, but that's because I have access to so many brands direct, and insteon isn't one of them - because I've heard nothing but bad things about SmartHome's pro programs, I don't even bother. I have plenty of other Manufacturer and distributor relationships without them. And I too know someday I'll bring in some Z-Wave just with how far it's gone - but for now I'm good. I even bought a Vera and an appliance module; neither have been opened. I really wish UPB had an ISY, but unfortunately that (the MiLightStyle) was a total flop.

Thanks for all of the input.

Work2play, my plan is for one furnace, with 3 zones (something like zone first), each with their own thermostat.

I think I have access to HAI at pro pricing levels, but I really want something easy to program and very DIY.

I have no problem with the INSTEON switches, they look like 99% of what we use in North America now, and want something that is obvious to anyone coming into our home.

So, if I go with INSTEON switches, Elk security, ISY for control, is there a reco on touchscreens? Reco on thermostats?

For the thermostats, you have two options. One is the RCS system which changes the zone controller to a multi-zone controller that can talk to your HA system - then it uses proprietary "Wall Display Units" - basically dumb thermostats, since all the logic is in the controller. The nice thing about that is that it only needs 4 wires to each thermostat, so it's an extremely easy retrofit.

Since you're in new construction, you can also just make sure you have all the necessary conductors and run an extra Cat5 to each thermostat location - in that scenario you'd use any ol' zone controller that's not HA aware, then you'd use something like an Omnistat2 from HAI. If you were to go with HAI's panel, that'd be the preferred route I believe...

I have the RCS system in my current house which is 2-zones. I used HAI in my last house that was single zone and easier to wire. The nice thing with the RCS system is that it's all a cohesive unit that works together, and it's extremely easy to wire. Your panel wires to the control board (which in my case is in the attic, directly above the elk panel) - and it's a well integrated system. The status of the system shows on any of the tstats (such as "heat on - in minimum runtime mode" - great for understanding why it's running at times). With any other solution, basically you have a dumb controller on the HVAC unit that tricks each thermostat into thinking it has its very own HVAC unit, and the controller handles the coordination. None are aware of each other.

I like the look of the omnistat2 the best; in fact I thought the RCS thermostats were kinda plain and ugly, until I powered one on - once it's in service, it looks good and the display is clear easy to understand.

Re:Touchscreens - I have little input other than, for the price nowadays, I'd look real hard at picking up a first-gen iPad off ebay and loading eKeypad on it, and getting a nice charging wall mount. Then you don't have to hack up your walls - and if you want an even nicer touchscreen down the road, you can upgrade to Elve and customize to your heart's content. Of course, with something like the $99 elve, I think you'd have something even more powerful than the ISY and be able to use UPB or Z-Wave, but that's just my $.02 (again, I'm a UPB user - which is well documented in my signature). Right now 99% of my system is just handled by the Elk itself, with a couple auxiliary things that run through Elve. Someday I'll take my own advice and start building some really nice touchscreen interfaces for it.

The look of Insteon switches is not too bad, I am not too fond of the look of your Clipsal switches myself but everybody is different.

I would echo what everyone else says about X10, you don't know the state of a switch which makes it less reliable than other technologies. I went with Z-wave because I like the idea of RF rather than PL.

I have about 20 z-wave dimmers and 12 switches plus a bunch of lamp and applicane modules. Most of these were <$20. I typically wait until I see a good deal on parts and then stock up. So far there have been a few notible z-wave sales: last years Radio Shack clearence of the Jasco/GE dimmers, Monster Outlet sales that pop up now and then, and tehn the Intermatic Intouch clearance that seems to be going on now. The point is you can often get better prices than retail if you are patient and shop around (regularly check ebay, etc). I have a feeling that as z-wave is manufactured by quite a few different companies there are more deals like this on z-wave. With most of these technologies it is easy to switch from a normal to a smart light switch at any time, so you don't have to do it during constructions.

If you are very picky about your switches than Aeon Labs has these in-wall micro dimmer / switch modules that go behind a normal switch to create a z-wave switch. They also report power consumption. Very cool, and about $45.

Right now automated outlet has a good sale on CA8900 Thermostats ($44). I don't know anything about those t-stats but I have placed an order with that retailer before and it arrived two days later.

I personally use a Vera 2 from Micasaverde to control my z-wave. I'm very happy with it. I have it hooked up to a DSC 1832 security system with about 20 sensors. They work great with Vera and DSC is probably the most economical security system you can find. I know people really like ELK systems too.

If you want to use LEDs you probably want to look at using devices with a neutral wire. Otherwise if you don't have enough bulbs on the same circuit the LEDs won't fully shut off (depends on the dimmer/switch and the specific LED bulbs,, but maybe 20watts min?). Not a problem with a neutral dimmer or switch. This is true for any technology, not just z-wave.