Newbie questions about a HA system

I am brand new to this forum and brand new to HA. I was wondering if I could list my requirements and someone could tell me what would be the best solution. Everything I have found so far has been confusing.

I have a 3000SqFt. home.

I don't have a networked house, so I would have to use the existing electrical wires and/or wireless.

I would like the system to be 99% reliable.

I want to start out by syncing the 4 zones that I have for my landscape lighting (Outside GFCI plugs), and also have expandability for the future.

I would like to be able to control everything from a computer and a remote (Logitech Harmony) and possibly have internet programability.

I have both PC and Mac, so platform is not too important

So I need to know what controller, what software and what switches to get to accomplish this goal.

Thanks in advance for your help

Nick

This sounds like a pretty modest list of desires. I would expect most any of the standard DIY systems to work. I use insteon and control four zones of landscape lighting. It works well. You did not specify the level of control (simple timers up to full conditional programming) and this can play a factor in control system. I will simply suggest an option based on my direct experience:

-controller: ISY-99 great product. Works without a computer running. No additional software required. Don't use insteon without one, I say. Requires a "PLM", which can be purchased as part of a package deal.
-in-line lincs: wired in switch used to control devices such as your outlets.
-IRlinc: recieves IR signals from your harmony (or any other remote), converts to insteon, and controls other insteon devices.
-access points: RF interface to compatible devices and bridges electrical phases of the house. Also can provide redundant communication path.
-Filters: Isolates noisy electrical devices. May not be required, but my experience suggests that one or two can be very useful for the worst devices in your house.

Reliability can be affected by quantity and type of other electrical devices throughout your house, but high reliability is achievable if you are willing to work at it, as necessary.

There is a UPB version of the ISY coming out that you may want to wait for. If you read through this and other forums you will see a lot of quality issues with Insteon devices (not the ISY that is fine since it is not made by Smarthome). With UPB you do not need filters etc most times and you dont need to buy a lot more of them (unless you want to) just to get a reliable system like you need to do with Insteon. And you wont have to "work at it" to get high reliability in most installations like Insteon.

No lighting protocal is perfect but there are significantly less problems noted with UPB then with Insteon if you read the forums. The ISY is probably the only thing that saved Insteon. UPB does not need saving but the ISY will really make UPB the top PLC based lighting system (in my opinion). In the long run UPB should be a lot cheaper without all of the filters, without having to "buy more" to get a reliable mesh (there is no mesh required for UPB), and the devices are higher quality (you wont be replacing devices that fail or have firmware problems etc) and available from several manufacturers for UPB. Not saying that a UPB device will never fail but look for yourself in the forums about the high rate of failures for Insteon (you wont find that many complaints for UPB or Zwave).

The INsteon keypads though are probably the best looking on the market (again in my opinion).

And dont forget to look at Zwave as well. Zwave definitely has some advantages over UPB and a little more selection for certain types of products.

Starting out, I would suggest picking up some inexpensive X10 outdoor modules and see if X10 will work in your environment. This is how many of us got started and x10 is by far the least expensive technology available. You should also load one of the software packages like HomeSeer on your PC and give it a play and see just how much fun this can be.

http://www.ruppworld.com is my HomeSeer install that is in need of updating but it shows what can be integrated such as cameras, thermostats, indoor/outdoor lighting, voice, whole house music and announcements, phone, email integration, the list goes on and on.

I want to start out by syncing the 4 zones that I have for my landscape lighting (Outside GFCI plugs), and also have expandability for the future.

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As Rupp mentioned the quick and most reasonable way for you to try this is with some external X10 modules. I still utilize the "old" / Legacy outdoor Black and Decker modules for my Christmas lighting. I also purchased a few of some similiar Z-Wave outdoor modules that are also OK for outdoor use. I now have each of these commercial transformers (600-1000 watt) hooked up with separate 15 AMP breakers. I've tested X10, Insteon, UPB and Z-Wave style appliance modules with these. The Z-Wave modules kept tripping the breakers. The Insteon appliance modules didn't work (maybe because they were too close to the Insteon PIM). The one UPB appliance module is working well right now and so are the the 3 older X10 appliance modules which are adjacent. (it is one of four appliance modules).

For my Landscaping lighting setup I wired it a different way. I created numerous zones using 10/12 guage outdoor 12VDC landscaping wire and routed all of the zones into the home to 4 commercial landscaping transformers. These are inside of the home.

This method is a bit more expensive with the heavier guage wire (some at 200 plus feet) and commerical transformers (a couple were $300 each).

I guess even though each of the transformers was built for outdoor use I preferred to put them indoors. (it was a cost thing too). They each have multiple taps / multiple circuits with breakers. In addition the have multiple voltages (which help on the longer low voltage runs). Today three of these are using older X10 appliance modules and one is now using a UPB appliance module. They are all synced and go on or off at the same time. One of my neighbors chose a similiar setup with commercial transformers outside connected to outdoor outlets around the same time I installed mine inside of the house. These have weathered a bit and are still functioning fine. They do kind of have a large footprint and kind of look OK but not great attached to the side of his house kind of hidden with some bushes.

I've started to look at LED outdoor lighting. Using this type of lighting you would not have the expense of a heavy duty lighting transformer but rather a more inexpensive LED style transformer. I could keep the outdoor cabling. One of my neighbors recently switched his front of the house landscaping lighting to pure LED's and I have noticed (and wife) that the lighting is very white (not warm white but a kind of harsh white). The LED lighting outdoor modules are dropping in price now but are still more expensive than the equivlent halogen style bulbs (MR-11's, MR-16's and bayonet style lamps).

I am thinking maybe of "trying" some LED's on all of the deck lighting. Its currently 10 small facing down sconces mounted on the deck railing. They are mounted close to the top of the rail and I have all of the low voltage wiring hidden under the cedar caps (top/side rails). The switch over to LEDs will be easy; just not sure on the "color" of the lighting and how different it will look from the current.

Starting out, I would suggest picking up some inexpensive X10 outdoor modules and see if X10 will work in your environment.

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I still utilize the "old" / Legacy outdoor Black and Decker modules for my Christmas lighting.

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Can I ammend my response!? I want to support these suggestions. In fact, I am among those who still use those Black and Decker modules for outside use. You may find these wholly satisfactory in control of your landscape lighting. X-10 also offers some benefits with integration with your harmony remote (many harmony remotes can be configured with built-in X-10 support). The percieved downside is reliability. I suspect the majority would view X-10 as the least reliable (in terms of signal performance), but many still use it with great success. Fortunately, you can try it in your house without great financial risk and see how it works for you.

I cannot speak for Z-wave or UPB, but insteon does tend to play well with X-10. If you start off with X-10, that can favor on a growth path towards insteon. I will let you decide if that is a good thing or not.

No lighting protocal is perfect but there are significantly less problems noted with UPB then with Insteon if you read the forums.

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I have no direct experience with UPB, but this is my perception, as well, from the forums. (But then, I tend to pay less attention to UPB, since I don't use it.) I have noted, however, a slight increase in forum questions regarding UPB signal interference. I also conclude the fact that there exists UPB filters must indicate that it is not immune to these problems.

nickp2001 said:

I would like the system to be 99% reliable.

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That's pretty high reliability for any DIY technology, but most (INSTEON, Z-Wave, UPB) will come pretty close. Note, however, that they probably won't do it right out of the box (so to speak). You'll find that some tweaking will be required (filters, device placement, etc). But nothing insurmountable for DIYers.

nickp2001 said:

I have both PC and Mac, so platform is not too important

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<plug>We believe our software, Indigo, is more capable than any Mac-based DIY system and extremely competitive with most PC-based systems. We fully support INSTEON (and X10) devices, including remote link management. Web access and a native iPhone/iPad app are included. Check MacHomeStore.com for some great starter packages and browse the forums for a good feel of our community and the great things that users are doing with Indigo.</plug>

oberkc said:

I have no direct experience with UPB, but this is my perception, as well, from the forums. (But then, I tend to pay less attention to UPB, since I don't use it.) I have noted, however, a slight increase in forum questions regarding UPB signal interference. I also conclude the fact that there exists UPB filters must indicate that it is not immune to these problems.

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I think you are noticing more things being mentioned about UPB (like the noise filters) due to the popularity it has gained. If it is used the most, then it will be talked about the most.

UPB works very well in many installations where X10 failed due to noise. It is much more robust. However, since it does use the powerline, there are occassions where something else will just cause too much interference. In these cases, you can add a plug-in filter to the offending device and all is well. I would venture to guess that only 1 out of 10 users have a device in their house bad enough to have to put one of these filters in place.

UPB works very well in many installations where X10 failed due to noise. It is much more robust. However, since it does use the powerline, there are occassions where something else will just cause too much interference. In these cases, you can add a plug-in filter to the offending device and all is well. I would venture to guess that only 1 out of 10 users have a device in their house bad enough to have to put one of these filters in place.

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I would say that insteon also works very well in many installations where X10 failed due to noise. Being better than X-10 is not an overly remarkable achievement. Still, my perception is that UPB is a bit more tolerant of noise than insteon. If I were to venture a guess, I would say that it is a higher number than one out ten insteon users that use filters. But then, one tends to not hear much from those who are having no problems.

I think you are noticing more things being mentioned about UPB (like the noise filters) due to the popularity it has gained. If it is used the most, then it will be talked about the most.

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Do you believe the installed base of UPB is greater than that of insteon?

oberkc said:

UPB works very well in many installations where X10 failed due to noise. It is much more robust. However, since it does use the powerline, there are occassions where something else will just cause too much interference. In these cases, you can add a plug-in filter to the offending device and all is well. I would venture to guess that only 1 out of 10 users have a device in their house bad enough to have to put one of these filters in place.

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I would say that insteon also works very well in many installations where X10 failed due to noise. Being better than X-10 is not an overly remarkable achievement. Still, my perception is that UPB is a bit more tolerant of noise than insteon. If I were to venture a guess, I would say that it is a higher number than one out ten insteon users that use filters. But then, one tends to not hear much from those who are having no problems.

I think you are noticing more things being mentioned about UPB (like the noise filters) due to the popularity it has gained. If it is used the most, then it will be talked about the most.

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Do you believe the installed base of UPB is greater than that of insteon?

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I beleive Jon meant that only about 1 in 10 UPB users may need filters and that number being a lot higher for Insteon users.

I also think that UPB is more widely used then Insteon and I see a lot of people mentioning that they went from Insteon to UPB (for whatever reason). There is a poll on this forum about what you would use if you could start all over and UPB was the winner but not by a huge margin. I doubt that there are double the amount of installations of UPB over Insteon but I do think that there are more UPB than Insteon.

Insteon can work but you can not easily start small many times (you need to buy more for reliablity even by SH own admission for years now) and you need filters etc more often than not. The quality issues may have improved somewhat in the past 2 years but there are still issues if you read the posts on the SH forum before they are deleted. Given time Sh may improve much more (UPB has been around a lot longer and is a mature product compared to Insteon).

One of the big positives for Insteon was the development of the ISY. Now that there is an ISY coming out for UPB I think that will impact people decision to move or stay away from Insteon's issues.

Again nothing is perfect but Insteons track record speaks for itself and it should be at least considered by anyone starting new.

I agree with a lot that is said.

I have Insteon and an ISY. The ISY is really a great thing. I have had Insteon for about 6 years. There were serious quality problems until about two years ago. I have since replaced every switch (at SH expense and my toil/trouble) and at present have no quality concerns. The switches all look good, feel good, and function perfectly. SH is a love/hate thing. They have replaced every single one of my devices beyond the original warranty time at no charge (love), but I had to do all of the work of R and Ring 60 devices (hate, especially on those 3 and 4 gang boxes). fortunately ISY makes reprogramming a breeze.

The new dual mode Insteon devices will probably elliminate the need for filters (which I only have 2 of in a 6,000 sf house anyway) as well as needing a large system for reliability. The dual mode are a bit pricier. I still think they are a bit cheaper than UPB, however.

zwave can be directly controlled by teh Harmony (which I also own). I love my Harmony, but the range is not going to be sufficient if you are controlling stuff more than one room away. The Harmony to ISY to power line is what I use and it works perfectly. I don't see zwave being embraced by very many people and I don't see the product line devloping much. I would not recommend going that way.

UPB is something I have never used but understand it is reliable. It is a bit more pricey, especially if you are talking about a large installation. ISY running UPB would be a great thing for a UPB owner. I really can't tell you how valuable an ISY is for HA. If/when ISY comes out with UPB I would have to say it would be hard to beat (except for price).

I too use some old B and D outdoor x10 devices. They really work great, so why change? Insteon does mesh fine with old x10 if you want to throw a couple of devices in there. UPB does not. X10 is, of course, super cheap. I wouldn't recommend using it too much, though, as your reliability is limited.

Lou Apo said:

I too use some old B and D outdoor x10 devices. They really work great, so why change? Insteon does mesh fine with old x10 if you want to throw a couple of devices in there. UPB does not. X10 is, of course, super cheap. I wouldn't recommend using it too much, though, as your reliability is limited.

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Not true. UPB and X-10 can coexist very nicely. There are no interoperability problems.

JonW said:

Lou Apo said:

I too use some old B and D outdoor x10 devices. They really work great, so why change? Insteon does mesh fine with old x10 if you want to throw a couple of devices in there. UPB does not. X10 is, of course, super cheap. I wouldn't recommend using it too much, though, as your reliability is limited.

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Not true. UPB and X-10 can coexist very nicely. There are no interoperability problems.

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to infer that they interfere, but rather they don't program to control each other.

Lou Apo said:

JonW said:

Lou Apo said:

I too use some old B and D outdoor x10 devices. They really work great, so why change? Insteon does mesh fine with old x10 if you want to throw a couple of devices in there. UPB does not. X10 is, of course, super cheap. I wouldn't recommend using it too much, though, as your reliability is limited.

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Not true. UPB and X-10 can coexist very nicely. There are no interoperability problems.

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to infer that they interfere, but rather they don't program to control each other.

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OK, sorry, I see what you mean. You are correct, UPB cannot talk directly to X-10 devices and vice versa. You would need something like an ISY, HAI or ELK to bridge the commands.

Lou Apo said:

I agree with a lot that is said.

I have Insteon and an ISY. The ISY is really a great thing. I have had Insteon for about 6 years. There were serious quality problems until about two years ago. I have since replaced every switch (at SH expense and my toil/trouble) and at present have no quality concerns. The switches all look good, feel good, and function perfectly. SH is a love/hate thing. They have replaced every single one of my devices beyond the original warranty time at no charge (love), but I had to do all of the work of R and Ring 60 devices (hate, especially on those 3 and 4 gang boxes). fortunately ISY makes reprogramming a breeze.

The new dual mode Insteon devices will probably elliminate the need for filters (which I only have 2 of in a 6,000 sf house anyway) as well as needing a large system for reliability. The dual mode are a bit pricier. I still think they are a bit cheaper than UPB, however.

zwave can be directly controlled by teh Harmony (which I also own). I love my Harmony, but the range is not going to be sufficient if you are controlling stuff more than one room away. The Harmony to ISY to power line is what I use and it works perfectly. I don't see zwave being embraced by very many people and I don't see the product line devloping much. I would not recommend going that way.

UPB is something I have never used but understand it is reliable. It is a bit more pricey, especially if you are talking about a large installation. ISY running UPB would be a great thing for a UPB owner. I really can't tell you how valuable an ISY is for HA. If/when ISY comes out with UPB I would have to say it would be hard to beat (except for price).

I too use some old B and D outdoor x10 devices. They really work great, so why change? Insteon does mesh fine with old x10 if you want to throw a couple of devices in there. UPB does not. X10 is, of course, super cheap. I wouldn't recommend using it too much, though, as your reliability is limited.

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I used an ISY to try and save my $4000 Insteon investment. The ISY was new at the time but it was worth every penny (now it has matured significantly and I am dieing to get my hands on the UPB version). In the end I ripped out all of the Insteon devices since one died every few days etc and replaced them with UPB. Years later and I have never had to replace a UPB device. The ISY for UPB is going Beta this month so it should probably be out Q1 of 2011 (that is my guess not a fact). The ISY/UPB combination will be a very big hit in my opinion and I would guess more people will jump away from Insteon if SH has another round of quality issues etc.

I have to disagree with you on Zwave. More and more manufacturers are investing in it. Where I work we are about ready to sink some serious cash into it in 2011's budget. Zwave will go somewhere with all of the new products being developed that you are probably not aware of. Several high volume alarm manufacturers (one being where I work) will have built in Zwave capabilities in the near future (I believe one up and coming manufacturer already has).

Are Insteon dimmers cheaper than UPB? Definitely!! About $20 each. Maybe if SH put about $5 to $10 more into each switch (basically doubling their cost to produce it) they could probably address most of their QC problems and still be cheaper. But if you subtract the cost of all of the filters and accesspoints you have to buy the cost difference is not that significant.