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Four-way switch without re-wiring anything - using UPB or?
- Thread starter v8625
- Start date
Not sure how you could possibly do it without linking all the switches involved in the 3-way or n-way scheme by an additional wire. All the manuals for equipment intended for such setup indicate that you need additional "Traveler/Control Wire" running between all the switches involved in the setup:
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCSWXWSXR15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCWS1R15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_USR-40A_100624.pdf
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCSWXWSXR15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCWS1R15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_USR-40A_100624.pdf
apostolakisl
Senior Member
v8625 said:OK, clear as mud as one of my professors in college used to say..
1. If I have to run additional wire between the three switches that I would like to "link" in a four-way switching setup - regardless of where the load is hooked up to - why do I need UPB or any other automation for that matter?
2. Is it really not possible to control one chandelier from three rocker switches - *WITHOUT* any additional wiring - using UPB or whatever?
What folks are saying is that it is very likely that you will not need any new wires.
However, you will likely need to reconfigure the existing wires. UPB, Insteon, Z-wave could all do this. I have Insteon. With Insteon, you need hot and neutral at each box (a ground isn't necessary to work, but should be used for safety). You currently have "traveler" wires connecting your 3-ways together plus a neutral. You'll need to keep your neutral and convert one of the travelers to hot just by splicing together differently at the boxes. One traveler wire will become unnecessary. Then both boxes have a hot and neutral. At that point you just hook up Insteon switches and link them (program them to talk to each other). The load box (the box where the wire takes off to go to the light fixture) gets hot/neutral/load hooked up, the other box just gets hot/neutral connected and load wire is capped. You can put more Insteon switches anywhere else in your house and cause it to control the other 2 by again programming the links.
Again, hot/neutral are necessary at each box and old houses don't necessarily have neutrals.
Regarding the "packaged solution" that was suggested in post #2 -
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_V3WAY-A_141215.pdf
- I am put off by the notice at the bottom of the manual -
"The Anywhere Series is not compatible with any of Simply Automated’s PC-Configured, Pre-Configured, Simply
SmartTM, or other UPB or UPStart configured products."
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_V3WAY-A_141215.pdf
- I am put off by the notice at the bottom of the manual -
"The Anywhere Series is not compatible with any of Simply Automated’s PC-Configured, Pre-Configured, Simply
SmartTM, or other UPB or UPStart configured products."
This is true. Are you looking for an automated switch solution, or are you looking for what you titled this thread, "Four-way switch without re-wiring anything?" This title says nothing about remote controlling switches from a home automation system. Certainly UPB switch setups using Simply Automated or Leviton or PCS switches is a topic that is discussed often. If that is your intention, then I'd recommend you check out these other discussion areas. Note to program these switches it takes UPStart software, a computer interface, and a PC.v8625 said:Regarding the "packaged solution" that was suggested in post #2 -
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_V3WAY-A_141215.pdf
- I am put off by the notice at the bottom of the manual -
"The Anywhere Series is not compatible with any of Simply Automated’s PC-Configured, Pre-Configured, Simply
SmartTM, or other UPB or UPStart configured products."
I re-read the title once again, thought about it, and concluded that even though I may not be the guru of describing engineering concepts and such, it still summarizes the task I am facing pretty succinctly.
I will try to describe the issues I am struggling with using a few more words - something might still be missed due to the brevity of the title.
1. I am exploring my option for converting a three-way switch (traditional wiring - no automation of any kind anywhere) into a four-way, i.e., controlling a load from three rocker switches instead of the current two.
2. There is a "traveler/control wire" between the two switches currently enrolled in this setup - in addition to the hot and neutral, as required by the traditional wiring setup for n-way switches.
3. The third switch - the one I would like to add to the setup - is not being used for any purpose, but does have power. It does not have the "traveler/control" wire links to anything.
4. If I were to run that "traveler/control wire" to the third switch I might as well just set it up again in a traditional wiring fashion - with no need for any automation. In other words, there is no gain for me in this situation - in terms of functionality. If, on the other hand, I could avoid having to install that additional "traveler/control wire" however, I would perceive that as a significant gain.
5. I was looking into these automation technologies that could potentially provide the solution - without additional wires - but *all* manufacturers that I was able to find state that these "traveler/control wires" are still required for any n-way switch setup -
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCSWXWSXR15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCWS1R15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_USR-40A_100624.pdf
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=35A00-3§ion=63228&minisite=10251
6. The packaged solution that was suggested as a workaround is something pre-programmed by the manufacturer and explicitly would not work with any other automation tricks that the user may want to add in the future. The only positive I see in this is that it proves that it is possible to set up an n-way switch without the "traveler/control wires" by using just the features of the UPB configuration of the switches. However, no one so far was able to confirm that and there seem to be no references to any such things in the UPStart manual.
I do not see programming the switches myself as a deterrent - in fact, I would strongly prefer to program something myself than sticking in something that I do not fully understand in terms of how it works and cannot re-program if I want to.. The only additional cost here appears to be the gateway or interface - about $300 - which can be justified if I can gain an ability to program switches at will.
The other components are either free or already paid for - UPStart is free and everyone has computers in their homes these days. One other piece of hardware that I might still need to purchase is the phase coupler, which does not appear to be prohibitively expensive. But, but, but, I don't want to spend any of that money if it would not give me what I am seeking to accomplish with all these toys.
I will try to describe the issues I am struggling with using a few more words - something might still be missed due to the brevity of the title.
1. I am exploring my option for converting a three-way switch (traditional wiring - no automation of any kind anywhere) into a four-way, i.e., controlling a load from three rocker switches instead of the current two.
2. There is a "traveler/control wire" between the two switches currently enrolled in this setup - in addition to the hot and neutral, as required by the traditional wiring setup for n-way switches.
3. The third switch - the one I would like to add to the setup - is not being used for any purpose, but does have power. It does not have the "traveler/control" wire links to anything.
4. If I were to run that "traveler/control wire" to the third switch I might as well just set it up again in a traditional wiring fashion - with no need for any automation. In other words, there is no gain for me in this situation - in terms of functionality. If, on the other hand, I could avoid having to install that additional "traveler/control wire" however, I would perceive that as a significant gain.
5. I was looking into these automation technologies that could potentially provide the solution - without additional wires - but *all* manufacturers that I was able to find state that these "traveler/control wires" are still required for any n-way switch setup -
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCSWXWSXR15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCWS1R15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_USR-40A_100624.pdf
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=35A00-3§ion=63228&minisite=10251
6. The packaged solution that was suggested as a workaround is something pre-programmed by the manufacturer and explicitly would not work with any other automation tricks that the user may want to add in the future. The only positive I see in this is that it proves that it is possible to set up an n-way switch without the "traveler/control wires" by using just the features of the UPB configuration of the switches. However, no one so far was able to confirm that and there seem to be no references to any such things in the UPStart manual.
I do not see programming the switches myself as a deterrent - in fact, I would strongly prefer to program something myself than sticking in something that I do not fully understand in terms of how it works and cannot re-program if I want to.. The only additional cost here appears to be the gateway or interface - about $300 - which can be justified if I can gain an ability to program switches at will.
The other components are either free or already paid for - UPStart is free and everyone has computers in their homes these days. One other piece of hardware that I might still need to purchase is the phase coupler, which does not appear to be prohibitively expensive. But, but, but, I don't want to spend any of that money if it would not give me what I am seeking to accomplish with all these toys.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
I can speak to Insteon for sure, and z-wave/upb to some extent.
Insteon NEVER requires a traveler wire. There is no such thing for any Insteon product I am aware of. The traveler wire might be re-purposed as a hot or neutral if it did not otherwise exist in one of the boxes.
Z-wave, I believe is the same.
UPB I believe has the option of using a traveler wire with a pre-fab drop in 3 way replacement. But I am pretty sure you could do it the same as with Insteon if you bought the standard UPB switches and not the drop-in replacement.
Provided you have hot/neutral/ground or can re-purpose wires to get a hot/neutral/ground in every box, then you will not need to pull any wires. This is for certain with Insteon and I believe the others as well provided you buy the correct items.
EDIT: As far as couplers. You should not need any with Insteon, even if they are different phases since pretty much all Insteon devices are now dual band (RF and powerline). The only caveat is if they are on different phases and way far away with nothing in between to repeat. Insteon devices all repeat messages so messages end up spidering all over the house. Different circuits is not necessarily a problem even with pure power line devices (UPB) provided the circuits are on the same phase.
Insteon NEVER requires a traveler wire. There is no such thing for any Insteon product I am aware of. The traveler wire might be re-purposed as a hot or neutral if it did not otherwise exist in one of the boxes.
Z-wave, I believe is the same.
UPB I believe has the option of using a traveler wire with a pre-fab drop in 3 way replacement. But I am pretty sure you could do it the same as with Insteon if you bought the standard UPB switches and not the drop-in replacement.
Provided you have hot/neutral/ground or can re-purpose wires to get a hot/neutral/ground in every box, then you will not need to pull any wires. This is for certain with Insteon and I believe the others as well provided you buy the correct items.
EDIT: As far as couplers. You should not need any with Insteon, even if they are different phases since pretty much all Insteon devices are now dual band (RF and powerline). The only caveat is if they are on different phases and way far away with nothing in between to repeat. Insteon devices all repeat messages so messages end up spidering all over the house. Different circuits is not necessarily a problem even with pure power line devices (UPB) provided the circuits are on the same phase.
UPB is a powerline technology that communicates over power and ground. No traveler is ever required. There is a type of UPB remote switch which does require a traveler, but personally i don't like it and its not required, its just a remote connection, not UPB. If you have hot and neutral at each location, that is all you need.v8625 said:I re-read the title once again, thought about it, and concluded that even though I may not be the guru of describing engineering concepts and such, it still summarizes the task I am facing pretty succinctly.
I will try to describe the issues I am struggling with using a few more words - something might still be missed due to the brevity of the title.
1. I am exploring my option for converting a three-way switch (traditional wiring - no automation of any kind anywhere) into a four-way, i.e., controlling a load from three rocker switches instead of the current two.
2. There is a "traveler/control wire" between the two switches currently enrolled in this setup - in addition to the hot and neutral, as required by the traditional wiring setup for n-way switches.
3. The third switch - the one I would like to add to the setup - is not being used for any purpose, but does have power. It does not have the "traveler/control" wire links to anything.
4. If I were to run that "traveler/control wire" to the third switch I might as well just set it up again in a traditional wiring fashion - with no need for any automation. In other words, there is no gain for me in this situation - in terms of functionality. If, on the other hand, I could avoid having to install that additional "traveler/control wire" however, I would perceive that as a significant gain.
5. I was looking into these automation technologies that could potentially provide the solution - without additional wires - but *all* manufacturers that I was able to find state that these "traveler/control wires" are still required for any n-way switch setup -
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCSWXWSXR15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/products/pdfs/PC-PulseWorx/PCWS1R15x_QuickStartGuide.pdf
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_USR-40A_100624.pdf
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=35A00-3§ion=63228&minisite=10251
6. The packaged solution that was suggested as a workaround is something pre-programmed by the manufacturer and explicitly would not work with any other automation tricks that the user may want to add in the future. The only positive I see in this is that it proves that it is possible to set up an n-way switch without the "traveler/control wires" by using just the features of the UPB configuration of the switches. However, no one so far was able to confirm that and there seem to be no references to any such things in the UPStart manual.
I do not see programming the switches myself as a deterrent - in fact, I would strongly prefer to program something myself than sticking in something that I do not fully understand in terms of how it works and cannot re-program if I want to.. The only additional cost here appears to be the gateway or interface - about $300 - which can be justified if I can gain an ability to program switches at will.
The other components are either free or already paid for - UPStart is free and everyone has computers in their homes these days. One other piece of hardware that I might still need to purchase is the phase coupler, which does not appear to be prohibitively expensive. But, but, but, I don't want to spend any of that money if it would not give me what I am seeking to accomplish with all these toys.
Most people use general UPB when setting up home automation. It works well, but it does take some technical knowledge and time to learn it and program it. Simply Automated saw a potential for sales by using UPB technology to create pre-programmed switchs for those that just want a simple three way or four way switch with no traveler and no hassle. I have never used them, but they look like a good idea for some people.
You mentioned couplers, but for the most-part, you would not need them for the pre-programmed switches because its very likely all the switches are on the same circuit. Not guaranteed, but likely. You likely WILL need a coupler if you use UPB for home automation because your switches will be spread out throughout the house. You only need a coupler is one or more switches are on one phase, while one or more are on the other phase.
You have to decide your goal, budget, and time commitment. UPB is a great standard, but there also is Zigbee, Insteon, Z-Wave, RadioRA, etc. too. The pre-programmed UPB switches is for the simple side, and the others lean toward more complex. Again, your choice.
What ano said...
The only thing you can do is reduce cost with UPB switches and a traveller, but I suspect that will cause you trouble in your case.
I re-wired a 4 way chandelier from conventional to UPB using the Simply Automated UPB in one position, and some of their dimmer remotes in the other positions. These are cheaper, because the remotes use the traveler and are dumb, not having the UPB electronics. Unfortunately, this usually means you need another wire in update situations, because even the remotes will need hot-neutral-ground-traveler, unlike conventional switches.
You can certainly do what you want by putting full UPB dimmers/switches at each location, and rewiring them to all have hot-neutral-ground. Then you program the one wired to the light as your main switch. The others get programmed to send commands only and have no load (light) attached to them.
The only thing you can do is reduce cost with UPB switches and a traveller, but I suspect that will cause you trouble in your case.
I re-wired a 4 way chandelier from conventional to UPB using the Simply Automated UPB in one position, and some of their dimmer remotes in the other positions. These are cheaper, because the remotes use the traveler and are dumb, not having the UPB electronics. Unfortunately, this usually means you need another wire in update situations, because even the remotes will need hot-neutral-ground-traveler, unlike conventional switches.
You can certainly do what you want by putting full UPB dimmers/switches at each location, and rewiring them to all have hot-neutral-ground. Then you program the one wired to the light as your main switch. The others get programmed to send commands only and have no load (light) attached to them.
Insteon doe not require any gateway, home computer or extra box to work. The switches are dual band mesh networking with all the other switches. This means they have two methods of communicating, RF and powerline and each device is a built-in repeater of both signals.
Even if yo wanted a 100 way switching for the light, no traveller wires are required, only power to each switch and one has to be connected to the lights, also.
Later you can add HA controllers and/or gateways to automate or remote control this system if desired..
IMHO this is the same as UPB except that Insteon has two methods of communicating instead of one.
Even if yo wanted a 100 way switching for the light, no traveller wires are required, only power to each switch and one has to be connected to the lights, also.
Later you can add HA controllers and/or gateways to automate or remote control this system if desired..
IMHO this is the same as UPB except that Insteon has two methods of communicating instead of one.
