Suggested HA lighting (friend building a home)

I know there are a number of polls regarding the various lighting systems... but every system is different and may have their own considerations, right?? Anyhow, I met with a friend from college yesterday who started working for the same company as I do about a month ago. I found out that he will be having a home built early next year and he asked for some assistance... This certainly wouldn't be the first time I've done anything like this... but what I'm looking for is some recommendations regarding the lighting...

I explained that I've been reading the boards and researching HA for a few years now, and talked to him about what I have installed right now. He really liked the idea in general, and not only wants controllable lighting, he wants to do all the goodies (sprinklers, locks... and anything else he can think of until then). That said, I am currently using a Zwave network - primarily because I wanted the network for my Zwave locks. However, when building from the ground up, should Zwave be given the same consideration, or would YOU recommend going a different route?

37 views... and no one suggests not to use Zwave for a new home?

I think there are so many personal preferences involved with lighting and when you throw in budget constraints, this turns into a Chevy verses Ford argument. Regardless of the lighting technology, I would focus on warranty (the switches aren’t cheap and a bad batch could set you back a pretty penny), ensuring that every switch has a neutral, and installing three-way lights using the same configuration. Lastly, perceived quality can also play a part in the selection.

Some people would rather pay a dealer to install and maintain the HA lighting system instead of trying to learn all the nuances of system. Obviously, dealers get better end-product support that a typical DIY. In addition, a dealer may be in a better position to enforce the warranty.

Unless your friend is ready to install a hard-wired lighting system, which is unlikely for a person unfamiliar with automation, all that he needs to do is to wire his house for regular switches but use deep switch boxes and make sure there is a neutral wire in every box. Once he is mostly finish the house he can revisit this question again and choose appropriate retrofit technology that would fit his needs at the time.

If I were to build a house again tomorrow, there's a really good chance I'd still go UPB. Insteon is still off my list for a couple of reasons; Z-Wave would be tempting as it's the fastest growing of the technologies, where it seams UPB is withering on the vine; That's not necessarily an indicator of the technology though as much as the companies behind it.

I'm sure I'll incorporate Z-Wave one of these days to bring the locks into the equation; but for lighting, I love that I can grab a lamp or appliance module that's set for holiday lighting and drop it in anywhere around the house i feel like without regard for routing; if it's in the house, it works.

You've been working with Z-Wave - what do you think it would be like if you threw it in a new house with 60 switches, thermostats, and a few locks - do you think it's really *there*? And of course with Z-Wave, the brand seems to make a big difference; it seems like you don't want to cheap out.

If he wants to go all-out, Does that mean he may want an Elk/HAI as well?

This is a good time to be doing the research and planning for the wiring; as said above, it's the preparation that matters most today - not necessarily picking the actual systems to be installed.

Thanks for the replies. Based on the capabilities that I've told him about regarding the Elk [which I've installed] along with control of lighting, locks, sprinklers etc. He is very interested in doing all of the above. Basically, I've run a car audio business for ~10 years; part time for the past 4 years since I've started a full-time career job. Since the purchase of my home, and shortly before, I started doing some home A/V work as well.

Anyhow, he had been working out of state for the past 4 years, and returned about a month ago. He's asked me if I still do similar work and if I would help him with installation. He really doesn't know what's possible other than what I've told him so far. Obviously the Elk is more than capable of handling the security aspect; I've got mine installed now, so I'd be comfortable helping him to get his installed as well. My main concern was the lighting - being new construction if I should have him look at other alternatives.

Based on my experience with Zwave, of which I currently have 16 devices installed and have plans to add more, I don't have any concerns/issues now that I'm aware of some of the nuances (e.g. Leviton devices automatically report status, and others which support beaming). Based on that, and the comments here so far, I'll probably recommend Zwave to him as well... unless there is some overwhelming post which convinces me otherwise.

Regarding the Elk installation, I've already told him that I'd recommend wiring with HA-type rules in mind (e.g. interior doors, and or occupancy sensors)... something I never thought to do when my current home was being built.

You should also consider the size of the house he is building. In my experience Z-wave is suitable for small to medium applications. In larger installs you start having latency issues and problems with status updates. A simple thing like burned out bulb can affect performance of the entire network, if you are not careful choosing your zwave devices. And it will be highly dependent on the local conditions, like metal objects, cars etc. If you are considering more than 40 devices, I would go with UPB. Also, it would be best to run cat5 to each thermostat even if you may end up using a wireless one latter.

picta said:

You should also consider the size of the house he is building. In my experience Z-wave is suitable for small to medium applications. In larger installs you start having latency issues and problems with status updates. A simple thing like burned out bulb can affect performance of the entire network, if you are not careful choosing your zwave devices. And it will be highly dependent on the local conditions, like metal objects, cars etc. If you are considering more than 40 devices, I would go with UPB. Also, it would be best to run cat5 to each thermostat even if you may end up using a wireless one latter.

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Thanks for the info. I have his floor plan, but not the electrical drawing. I have no idea how many of his lights that he will want to integrate just yet, but I will mention this to him. I'm 90% certain that he wants to do locks, which likely means Zwave... so there will probably be some sort of Zwave network either way - whether it's also used for lighting or not, I'm not sure yet.

If you only used Z-Wave for locks, depending on the size of the place, might not be enough critical density of modules to create a reliable network?

zigbee has higher range than z-wave, but there are fewer devices currently available on the market and they are more expensive than z-wave. Most HA controllers handle multiple technologies, so the lights could use different technology than the locks if you have a controller like HAI/Elk or HA software.

If I did it all over again I would install centralite,lutron, or one of the other systems. I wired for alc, but that mostly died right after I put in all the cat5. I would like the look of a lot less switches and dislike some of the compromises you get with upb and zwave. For example, our downstairs goodnight button turns off all the rooms dowstairs - 50% of the time when we press it and the go into the media room the scene switch doesn't work because conflicts with the rooms being turned off downstairs.

broconne said:

If I did it all over again I would install centralite,lutron, or one of the other systems.

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I did exactly that in my current house after trying every wireless technology for the previous ten years. I went with centralite and we are very happy with it. We used only single and double gang boxes for the switches, and each gang can hold up to 4 buttons. The result is we have over 300 switches, 102 real loads and over a hundred of "virtual" loads (things like shades, fireplaces, locks etc.), all in one system that is connected to HAI OP2. There is no way you could have such size system with wireless devices and no reliability issues. Also programming and changing the system is so easy compare to other technologies.

If you want truely reliable automated lighting, the hardwire is the way to go. And the only time to do it is when you are building a new house. But it will be very hard to make such decision for someone who has no previous experience, so most people stay on the cautious side and go with conventional wiring.

You couldn't have a Z-Wave system that large anyway, since it's limited in the number of unit ids available on a given network. Maybe you could use two different networks, but that might just make things even worse, I dunno. If memory serves, the max number of units on a Z-Wave network is 232, right? So a byte for unit addressing, wtih some reserved for special purposes.

New construction - why not hardwired access control, with the Elk? Skip the wireless door locks altogether.

I think batteries are a PITA, anyway.

I haven't read much about it, but RA2 can supposedly integrate well with Elk.

Hardwired lighting control, with category cable to the switches, is very appealing. ALC should have been a winner. I think Centralite can be wired in this fashion, but unsure.

Dean Roddey said:

If you only used Z-Wave for locks, depending on the size of the place, might not be enough critical density of modules to create a reliable network?

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Completely understood. If Zwave locks are used [at a minimum] beaming devices would also be installed to increase the density of the network.