Elk M1 w/ proximity for large building, do it myself possible?

Hi there.
I am asking about the feasability of installing an Elk M1G panel to control access to a large building and doing it myself.
I have experience configuring the ELK for my home but nothing large scale like this.
My company is moving to a new building and the quotes for door security are getting expensive and it seems like it might be a fun side project if I can have the folks doing the data wiring go ahead and wire to the doors for me.
Basically its a 100,000 sq ft building and we need to control access to 12 external doors and 8 internal doors.

I am doing the video security myself by having the data wiring guys wire for cat 5e to all the cameras locations and then will use a mix of megapixel and non megapixel cameras to monitor the building.

BTW, I am the IT guy there so fairly technical plus like playing with the stuff.
I am intrigued if it can do it myself and actually have it work reliably.

Questions remain like how many control panels can I have? proximity sensors for outside? How to activate the door locks etc.

Please let me know if this is a completely stup idea and i should not even attempt it.

THanks!

The biggest reason I would think for not wanting to do it yourself is liability in case something goes wrong...

Wiring things up would be fine; but I'd have the door or security guys actually install the door hardware and you just wire it to your panel. The door hardware is very costly and tricky to install right and get everything aligned; leave that to the pros. But as for wiring in an Elk and programming in some prox readers, it's totally doable.

I don't have the manuals in front of me that state how many keypads are allowed (8?); for activating the doors, it's simple - you use a relay (M1RB or M1XOVR/M1RB combo) to send voltage to the strike to activate the release.

20 doors might exceed what the elk can do; the outputs would be easy, but you need to have 20 readers and i doubt the elk can support that many. You probably need to look into standalone door controllers.

No ideas are sutpid ideas. It just depends on how much you know and how much you are willing to learn on the fly...


My thoughts are that you need an access control system not the Elk-M1 for this application. The Elk-M1KAM is the access module and controls one door. Since it takes place of a keypad on the Elk system you could have 15 doors with 1 Keypad max. (16 Keypad Devices Max) You could always use 2 M1's but it gets cumbersome to manage.

Card access is more geared to what you need. It will give you the ability to manage access groups, schedules, holidays, etc. All things that the M1 doesn't do or doesn't do well.


How many employees are at the location?

Do all 12 exterior doors really need to have card access? In other words, do they lead to areas in the building that aren't accessible from other areas.

Do you already have card access at the old building? If so what type of cards are they using, 26 Bit wiegand, 35 Bit wiegand, etc...

If you are definitely looking to do it yourself, installing the lock hardware can be tricky if your not in the business. Fail safe, sail secure, are there any stairways that are getting electrified locks...

Liability could also be an issue as mentioned above.

If you are going to go the DIY route and are looking for a very basic card access system I could suggest one or two if you are interested.

Otherwise, I would recommend going with a reputable local company and installing a system that they are certified and trained to install. Like I said I, could recommend brands if you are interested.

Also be aware of any possible recurring costs from the manufacturer for software maintenance and tech support once the system is installed. This will be on top of any service charges by your local vendor.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I appreciate it!

Thanks Gatchel for your expanded reply and help!

I figured it would be nice to make use of the ELK for this as I could expand and implement the alarm side of the Elk as well.
Wrong product for the requirement, oh well.

There are around 100 employees at this site so 100 or so access cards needed.

External doors: many will be set for emergency exit only and do not need card access now that I think about it. I can identify about 5 exit points that will need readers.

We currently have an old system called Northern Computer and the software is Winpak 2.0 for control. We don't know if it's 26 bit or 35 bit. How can we tell? They are telling us they don't even want to deal with the old system as it's too old

Would appreciate recomendations on systems for both DIY and PRO so I can investigate both.

Several of the doors are already configured for card reader locks but several more will need prep work and it sure looks UGLY to figure out how to incorporate into those doors.

Thanks for all your help!

If you want card access and alarm capability then you have three options. You can use a card access system that integtrates with an alarm panel, you can wire outputs from the card access system to an alarm panel and let the card access system decide when to send a signal on door prop or forced door to the panel or you can keep the two systems separate all together. You really should try to speak with an integrator you want to the two systems to work seamlessly with each other. There are a bunch of details that have to be met to minimize false alarms.

You could use the Elk if you wanted to but you must realize that if you want to be able to give certian people limited access to certain doors your programming is not going to be fun. The elk can also be just used for monitoring and it can recieve signals from the card access system via relay outputs.

With a card access system you can do this very easily based on templates you create with "real names" like Cleaners 24/7, Cleaners 5PM to 12AM, Employee 24/7, Employee 1st Shift, etc...

Your old northern cards should be able to be used with you new system. Most likely they are 26 bit but they could be a proprietary format. If your integrator is good, they should be able to decipher the card format, and facility code. As long as they are using standard HID readers or HID compliant readers you should be good.

Northern is still an option with newer software of course I think you can buy it off the shelf. Keri Systems is another option that is inexpensive, the software is free, updates are (have been) free.

For a higher end system that can do much much more than basic card access I would suggest Software House or S2. Both companies started in Mass. Software House is now owned by Tyco. SWH still has an office in Mass but they do not deal with end users you are going to need an integrator. They also have a yearly agreement for tech support and software updated. SWH Ccure is a server based system.


S2 on the other hand is a no server needed system. The access panels are all browser based and all database information is stored on board. They also don't deal with customers direct. They have a yearly fee for updates also.


Both systems can seamlessly integrate with certain camera systems so that door alarms can generate event based video and be accessed in a click or two.


If some doors already have access it might be as easy as cutting over the wiring from the old system to the new system. You could save money here as wires don't have to be pulled, strikes don't have to be cut in, etc...


You have to decide how much your company might grow. If you have potential for multiple locations you may want to go with Corporate 1000 (35Bit) cards as you will be locked to your own facility code that no other company can use. You may also want to go with an enterprise system that can be managed from one location and have one card per person that can access all facilities.

If not, then a Keri or Moden Northern (Honeywell) access system will suffice with a separately wired alarm system (elk or other).'

IP Cameras... Axis, Panasonic.. there are others but these are the ones I have had the best luck with. You as an IT guru could set them up if you wanted too. Just make sure you understand that you arent going to get a license plate at a distance while looking at a parking lot unless you drop some cash on a quality Megapixel camera. People often expect more from cameras than they are willing to pay for or they are capable of. If you are shooting interior shots of doors or a small lobby you should be fine with a standard resolution IP camera. (640x480 ish) I recommend getting a camera or two as demos and tinkering with them to see what you are getting for your money and how they compare. My first choice would be Panasonic, then Axis.

Gatchel, thanks agin for you continued thoughts.

We just had in a vendor that pitched S2 system which looked decent, expensive but nice.
We are not really in a growth business so I don't think that will be a factor. 1 location here in US is all we will need.

I have found the sub contractor that many of the local door control systems vendors use for actually installing the hardware in the doors. I might give them a shout and find out what it would cost to have them do the doors for us and perhaps upgrade the Northern to the newest version.

From an IT standpoint, you might be more interested in an edge based/hardware at the door POE sort of system with the basic controllers run out to the individual doors and then address power for the door hardware at the door itself. Would make for a smaller, more managable install.

I can't see such a small system running something like SWH and being cost effective. Maybe something like Amag or Pegasys, Northern/Honeywell would also be a valid contender. I personally don't like Casi-Rusco, as one of our larger sites (we're migrating over to SWH/C*Cure 9000) with over 50K+ cardholders and somewhere around 600 panels between SWH and Casi, we experience many hardware issues, but might be a symptom of having a 24/7 site and the amount of use the hardware really sees.

The larger systems, unfortunately, are really designed for a site that integrates security and access together on a single platform.

If you had only a couple doors and limited users, the M1 works reasonably well, however it's somewhat inflexible or friendly for running schedules and windows for users compared to a real access control system. I have a few accounts with an M1 and prox using KAM's installed at the door. The unfortunate thing is the reader length and wiring comes into play compared to a more traditional system.

DEL,

What do you think about using the CCure 9000 Siteserver and Istar Edge's? I think it would be a vaible lower cost solution. (Notice I didn't say lowest)

As far as deciphering cards and formats, international bar code has that covered with a device, and would allow a migration if the credentials are to be carried over, but for that few users and credentials, I would honestly abandon the existing credentials and move forward and build a proper system from day 1 rather than waste the time/effort with old stuff, trying to determine the card range and site ID, let alone the bits on the card. Cut your losses early regarding Winpak.

I believe it would be cost-prohibitive compared to another contemporary system using a different platform, even some of the IP/POE install at the door units, pulling a heavier power cable for the lock with the ethernet to cut down on cabling.

Part of the issue I see using C*cure, buying a Edge for each 2 doors, then any additions would be another Edge...barring moving to an EX or Pro. While it'll work, I'd shy away from it for that small of an access project, the topology just doesn't make sense to justify the end result. I can't see the end user here even opening up Monitoring Station and using it, which would be half the software package.

For a beginner or novice, I'd recommend someone to stay with a product line that is more 1 for 1 as far as inputs/outputs,and in a small and possibly end-user maintained and administered site, something like Netaxs (Honeywell) would fit the bill. I can't remember the other smaller edge-based controller manufacturers offhand.

I'm generally dealing with C*cure 800, C*cure 9000, Amag, Linel, and a few other platforms normally, but for smaller stuff like this, I wouldn't be able to justify a server, and IMHO, with that many users and doors, I think it's too big for an M1 with KAM's, let alone the programming wouldn't be easy if any schedules or similar are to be used, not to mention the 4000' max run for the 485 bus.

DelInstallations: Thanks for jumping into the conversation. I really appreciate your input!

So, are you thinking I should shy away from updating our Nothern Computer and Winpak to latest and move to a different solution?

Can you give me a little more info on the edge based system with POE options? Sounds interesting.

Boss is already indicated the cost of S2 is too much and of course asks "can't we just go back to keys" Oh boy!

If you are talking about going back to keys definitely take a look at the Keri Systems products or other lower end products that have been mentioned.

Just to throw out another option... here is a system I put in last year and was a great fit for a small business; started out with just 2 doors in a single building, then quickly integrated 6 more.

http://www.brivo.com/products/acs-onsite

Programming and maintenance was amazingly simple - very easy to create groups, set rules for which doors and times of day, and add users to a group - takes only minutes to learn - and very easy to expand and stick with the product line up into full enterprise should one need.

Found the manufacturer I was thinking of, Infinias. You're still looking installing a supply/supplies for the door hardware, however like the Netaxs and others, it cuts down on the wiring for comms or otherwise.

The issue at hand is Winpak is really just the software to speak to a compatible controller platform. If you start looking at the hardware you have already, if it's as old as you say, then there's not much in the way of salvage IMHO, especially given the number of doors and users listed.

I would honestly, keep the alarm and access separate, and if really desired, use a dedicated access hardware controller, and if desired, integrate with a standalone alarm system, Elk or similar, and use the ACS to control the alarm.

Infinias looks pretty good and i am about to order a copy of their software, 1 reader, 1 door module and a kefob and see if I can make it work.
Looks like an ethernet cable is all thats needced to the door controller and then short wiring from there to the locks.

We are currently using badges and want to switch to keyfobs. With badges, all I need to do is plug the badge number into the software and we are good to go. Do keyfobs work the same way or do I need a programmer of some sort? I was looking at HID Proxy II keyfobs.

Thanks!