Elk-M1 G and new house build

I've got a friend who is building a 4800sq foot home and he is planning on getting the Elk M1-Gold plus Insteon/ISY99i Controller kit. We are installing the system and wiring the house our self.

The problem I'm having is his driveway. It's a gated entrance that is about 2000+ feet away from the house. He would love to have a Camera/intercom system so when someone get's to the gate they either push a button to call in or have a motion detector to advise there is someone at the gate. He would then like to be able to unlock and open the gate from his iPhone and/or Elk Keypads.

Any suggestions on how to get the signal out 2000 feet to power a camera/intercom plus access control to the gate? Also any help on which products to use would be great.

Thanks.

You might look at making everything at the gate ip. There are focused wifi antennas if it is a relatively unobstructed path that will make that distance quite easily.

Running analog wires 2000 feet is likely to be very poor quality and costly. PLC commands are probably not going to work at that distance either. Wired IP will require multiple repeaters for 2000 feet which seems unreasonable difficult to install and prone to failure buried out in the yard.

I suggest an IP based security camera, and a CAI webcontrol unit to control the gate functions and lighting. I am not having any ideas about the intercom right now.

Lou Apo said:

You might look at making everything at the gate ip. There are focused wifi antennas if it is a relatively unobstructed path that will make that distance quite easily.

Running analog wires 2000 feet is likely to be very poor quality and costly. PLC commands are probably not going to work at that distance either. Wired IP will require multiple repeaters for 2000 feet which seems unreasonable difficult to install and prone to failure buried out in the yard.

I suggest an IP based security camera, and a CAI webcontrol unit to control the gate functions and lighting. I am not having any ideas about the intercom right now.

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Found this online. Would something like this work ??
http://www.security-camera-warehouse.com/cat-5-balun.php
or
http://www.ethernetextender.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=45

It's said it will go up to 1500 feet so I figure if we run Cat 6 we might get that extra bit of distance?

your2slow said:

Found this online. Would something like this work ??
http://www.security-camera-warehouse.com/cat-5-balun.php
or
http://www.ethernetextender.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=45

It's said it will go up to 1500 feet so I figure if we run Cat 6 we might get that extra bit of distance?

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I suspect the ethernet booster thing will work, according to the datasheet there it will. It is a little pricey plus you need to consider the cost of the cable and having it buried and having to worry about it getting damaged. If you run wire, I would put it in conduit and bury it. The point to point wifi antennas are a lot cheaper and I have heard many success stories. Plus there is a much lower chance of having lightening damage as compared to a half mile of wire.

I don't know about the baluns. Can you get everything you need through them? Plus I just doubt an analog signal is going to be very good after that much wire regardless of what they say.

There has to be an IP enabled video/voice intercom system out there. Plus IP at the gate means you can put in a switch and connect multiple devices for controlling all kinds of things without running extra wires.


Try contacting this company. http://www.valcom.com/techsupport/ip_solutions/ip_intercomdoorphones.htm
The look like they will be able to set you up.

Surprised nobody mentioned fiber and IP? 2-4 strands isn't that expensive and also takes care of the surge/lightning

DELInstallations said:

Surprised nobody mentioned fiber and IP? 2-4 strands isn't that expensive and also takes care of the surge/lightning

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Fiber sounds great, but what about the conversion from electrons to photons and back again? It has been a long time since I looked at anything like that, but my recollection was that it is pricey.

EDIT: Just ebay'd it. Looks like you could do 100mbs transceiver at each end and the wire for a few hundred bucks. Now if you can find someone to trench for you at a reasonable cost that would work. Personally, I shutter at the thought of a half mile trench, but I think it is definitely worth consideration. Probably it needs to go in conduit for protection as well.

There is another active thread right now on cocoontech discussing essentially the same topic, just not so much about managing the distance. http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19754&pid=161392&st=0&#entry161392

It looks to me like you should go with sip and either fiber or wireless internet connection at the gate.

Lou Apo said:

There is another active thread right now on cocoontech discussing essentially the same topic, just not so much about managing the distance. http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19754&pid=161392&st=0&#entry161392

It looks to me like you should go with sip and either fiber or wireless internet connection at the gate.

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Checking it out.. Thanks.

Loose tube fiber/armored isn't too bad in cost and provided it is pulled in properly can be put in without really the need for a conduit. Only needs to be 18" down and negates the issues with conduit and related bend radiuses to get the fiber into the house, unless it is coming in below grade.

I do a lot of outside cabling and I always put it in conduit even if not required. The distance honestly isn't that bad - but you'll find it's a pain to find an all-in-one camera/intercom/gate control in one device - what people tend to do is get an intercom/gate control (plenty of these around) and have video completely independent. Unfortunately the combo systems are often proprietary - but if you use standalone video you can use whatever you want - a video server, etc - that's how you'll get it into your iPhone.

I wouldn't think 2000ft is that bad - during construction there's likely to be equipment around - put someone on a ditch-witch for a day or two and you're done - drop in conduit for electrical and another for LV and you're future-proofed. Then you can even supply power locally for the camera and gate control - and getting TCP over Cat5 over long distances is really no big deal - that unit you found works fine or with power already local you can go even cheaper; many systems only use one pair out of the Cat5, so you could run the intercom/gate control on the remaining pairs. You don't need the better twists of Cat6 but the thicker gauge may help with voltage drop... and if you really want overkill, use some Ubiquiti Toughcable - it's armored, shielded, has an ESD Drain wire, and UV Protected... then there's nothing to fear but a backhoe. Even DEL's suggestion for Fiber works but it's a little harder to terminate - but I've used plenty of those transceivers - they're great and seamless.

Though not ideal, terminating fiber with crimps and matching gel will work, though it will add to the attenuation and loss of the cable, but I doubt it'd be even noticed in a application like this.

People are still stuck in beliving that epoxy or fusion based connectors with lapping/polishing are the only way to go based on how fiber was done previously in years past.

I'd recommend the fiber route prior to ethernet extenders to push past the 100m rule, they're not as reliable and you still have the issue at hand of not being electrically isolated/lighting.

Burying wire is great and all, but man, it is so easy to use a directional antenna and they work. I know someone who connected his home to his office several miles away. If you had some high-end security considerations like protecting industry secrets or banking information that would be one thing, but to control a residential gate, why kill yourself with all the trenching, fancy terminations, worrying about lightening ground, worrying about backhoes, worrying about groundhogs, spending all that extra money, and so forth.

Lou Apo said:

Burying wire is great and all, but man, it is so easy to use a directional antenna and they work. I know someone who connected his home to his office several miles away. If you had some high-end security considerations like protecting industry secrets or banking information that would be one thing, but to control a residential gate, why kill yourself with all the trenching, fancy terminations, worrying about lightening ground, worrying about backhoes, worrying about groundhogs, spending all that extra money, and so forth.

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Sounds good on paper, but we have remote sites sending point to point data, etc. and they're never as reliable as a good hard connection. There's applications, but RF should be a consideration only when physical constraints or economics don't allow the connection. Personally, I wouldn't want to have to reset these devices all the time like I'm forced to on some of our larger sites when they hiccup.

DELInstallations said:

Sounds good on paper, but we have remote sites sending point to point data, etc. and they're never as reliable as a good hard connection. There's applications, but RF should be a consideration only when physical constraints or economics don't allow the connection. Personally, I wouldn't want to have to reset these devices all the time like I'm forced to on some of our larger sites when they hiccup.

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I am curious, what needs to be reset? In my experience with IP devices both wired and wireless, resets fix routing issues, not rf connections. You either get a good enough signal, or you don't, resets have never changed that.

How is electric service provided at the gate? I'm thinking if your friend has to cut a trench from the house to the gate to get power there, then the same trench might be suitable for low voltage or fiber. On the other hand, if gate power comes from a pole across the street, then a trench just for the low voltage might make the wireless solution more practical.