14K sq ft, 3 breaker boxes, is UPB the way to go?

getting started, and after much reading on this site it looks like upb or zwave is the way to go. But i want to make sure its gonna work for me. the house is 14,000 sq ft and has 3 breaker boxes. I'm gonna setup everything through pc and software to control lighting but may expand in the future. Which technology do you guys think will work best for me? Thanks for any input.

It would probably pay to get a few devices or each make and test them out.

thanks for the reply. its good to know at least that you believe both will work, but may need some testing. thank you.

UPB does not repeat signals. So the bigger the house, the worse it will do in your home. Zwave is not dual mesh, it only repeats signals via RF. I would consider Insteon, it is dual mesh, so it repeats signals via RF & Powerline. The bigger the home, the stronger the mesh network will be. Plus, with the ISY-99, you can create any scene imaginable all without the need of a dedicated computer.

usuallyresourceful said:

getting started, and after much reading on this site it looks like upb or zwave is the way to go. But i want to make sure its gonna work for me. the house is 14,000 sq ft and has 3 breaker boxes. I'm gonna setup everything through pc and software to control lighting but may expand in the future. Which technology do you guys think will work best for me? Thanks for any input.

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Can you give some more details? How many switches in total are you putting in?

Is the house already built or do you have hardwire options available?

If you have the ability to separate the lighting switchlegs and loads, I'd go another route, such as Vantage or similar first, but there's a few more robust solutions other than UPB to consider in an integration project of this size, but YMMV.

midrar said:

UPB does not repeat signals. So the bigger the house, the worse it will do in your home. Zwave is not dual mesh, it only repeats signals via RF. I would consider Insteon, it is dual mesh, so it repeats signals via RF & Powerline. The bigger the home, the stronger the mesh network will be. Plus, with the ISY-99, you can create any scene imaginable all without the need of a dedicated computer.

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This is entirely incorrect information.
One, UPB signals can travel up to two miles. The size of your home will most certainly not be an issue. That's not to say you may not have to work to optimize signals across the breaker panels but, 14K sq.ft. home, in and of itself, will not pose a problem.
Two, Insteon receives no performance benefits based on the size of the home but, rather, the size of the network. More devices means more opportunity for signal hop.
Three, UPB does not require a dedicated computer, or any computer for that matter, to execute scenes.

I'm not suggesting that UPB is THE answer for you. I just want to dispel the bad advice offered here.

I think Midrar meant to say that with ISY you can create a virtual limitless and intricate set of programs that run without a dedicated computer. Scenes that run wihtout some sort of controller always execute the same, so with an ISY or computer you can have scenes that run differently based on any number of factors (like time of day) or run on their own.

ISY is a very powerful tool. A UPB firmware is in beta for it right now so I think if you want to use ISY, you could go either way (Insteon/UPB).

Insteon is the only dual band product right now where all of the most common devices use RF and powerline (or you can spend less and get the power line only stuff).

14,000 sf is a big home but I really doubt that you would have trouble with Insteon or UPB. The RF only products I suspect would not work very well, especially if the home is spread out. I have 6500 sf with three boxes and the powerline only Insteon stuff (installed it prior to the dual band, I would use dual band if doing it again). I rarely have a failed command but would bet anything that it is powerline noise that is the problem, not size of home.

If you have a "green" spirit in you (which an odd number of people with gigantic homes seem to have), you might consider power consumption of the devices. The current Insteon switches consume well under 1 watt per switch. Check out IndyMike's thread on that. If you are going to install 150 or more devices in such a large home, that can add up. I don't know what UPB eats per switch and it might differ by manufacturer. If you can't find a thread on that you might consider buying a few of the switches and a killowatt and testing it yourself.

The current Insteon switches also have a beeper in the switch which, to my knowledge, is unique to them. I have found it to be a nice feature which I initially couldn't see any use for.

Anyhow, if you are really going to automate such a large home, it would be well worth your time to buy 3 or 4 of each type and play with them. You can always unload the extras on ebay. Also read up on the controllers like ISY and Homeseer.

Also, I hope you have a lot of time to play with it. Automating that large of a home will present you with a myriad of options and, if you really enjoy this stuff like some of us here, you will want to take full advantage of it, which means lots of programs.

Lou, you correct about what I was trying to say about the ISY.

AnthonyZ stated he wanted to dispel my bad advice. Well, UPB is advertised to travel up to 2 miles in a perfect world. The problem is a lot of people do not realize how many feet of wire is in their home. A 14K sq home could have 2 miles of NM cable. For the record, thats the linear length of the cable, its not multiplied out since its a 2 conductor plus ground. Now i'm not completely against UPB, especially in a home half that size. But in my opinion, a home over 10K sq, I wouldn't risk the investment.

AnthonyZ was correct about Insteon not having a performance benefit when it comes to the size of the home. It's benefit becomes more relevant when the bigger the network. More devices, the more powerful it will be.

Stay away from Insteon.

Why not go hardwired?

Just FYI, my home is over 10,000 sf and UPB works just fine - couplers were installed in each breaker panel.

UPB should not be a problem at all, and both couplers and REAL repeaters do exist. Ger a repeater, go all GEN II and you shouldn't have a problem at all.

The only thing that could be cause for concern would be if you have a backup generator and/or solar power, but there are solutions for that as well.

I'll add that, with 150 loads, you should be able to contact the manufacturers of the companies you're leaning towards. They should have opinions on feasibility and be willing to aid success. If not, I personally wouldn't buy their products anyway. That's a sizable installation that they should help engineer and back. My house is considered a large install with 65 loads - and you've really got me beat.

That's a good point though I can tell you that I have installed 160'ish load (all HAI) and a 130'ish load (HAI and PCS) systems.

AnthonyZ said:

That's a good point though I can tell you that I have installed 160'ish load (all HAI) and a 130'ish load (HAI and PCS) systems.

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Cool! Any lessons learned or advice to share or did they just perform well out of the box? What sort of couplers/repeaters did you need?