ELK/HAI UL info

From talking to both company's engineers, HAI was engineered as an automation panel first, as were the prior HAI products. Elk was engineered as a security panel directly off the drawing board.

While 99.9% of the installs out there are not UL listed, inspected and certificated, the point is that the product and devices that are listed for usage with the panel are extremely limited. UL's guidelines for a certificated install are specific, and while some items are off the wall, the majority of requirements err on the conservative and safe side.

HAI's product does not carry the same UL listings and classifications that Elk's does, which means that the product was not submitted and tested as thoroughly via UL for a UL listed system and product, which is specific down to the enclosure it's mounted in, which Elk's offerings are all UL listed. In layman's terms, it means it was not tested thoroughly to be suitable for the uses it's intended for. All I can say is, barring the items that weren't evaluated by UL, look at the UL listings each one carries.

While the majority of people aren't going to worry about it, what it means to me is that I can't install a HAI in certain applications "legally" without exposing myself to liability. There are also some municipalities and inspectors that will not accept certain products, and I have at least 4 municipalities that will not accept a HAI panel for fire alarm or CO detection. It may work, but without that piece of paper or manual, it hasn't been proven beyond a doubt to the AHJ's that it's suitable for it's intended purpose.

DELInstallations said:

From talking to both company's engineers, HAI was engineered as an automation panel first, as were the prior HAI products. Elk was engineered as a security panel directly off the drawing board.

While 99.9% of the installs out there are not UL listed, inspected and certificated, the point is that the product and devices that are listed for usage with the panel are extremely limited. UL's guidelines for a certificated install are specific, and while some items are off the wall, the majority of requirements err on the conservative and safe side.

HAI's product does not carry the same UL listings and classifications that Elk's does, which means that the product was not submitted and tested as thoroughly via UL for a UL listed system and product, which is specific down to the enclosure it's mounted in, which Elk's offerings are all UL listed. In layman's terms, it means it was not tested thoroughly to be suitable for the uses it's intended for. All I can say is, barring the items that weren't evaluated by UL, look at the UL listings each one carries.

While the majority of people aren't going to worry about it, what it means to me is that I can't install a HAI in certain applications "legally" without exposing myself to liability. There are also some municipalities and inspectors that will not accept certain products, and I have at least 4 municipalities that will not accept a HAI panel for fire alarm or CO detection. It may work, but without that piece of paper or manual, it hasn't been proven beyond a doubt to the AHJ's that it's suitable for it's intended purpose.

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As a Compliance Engineer for an Alarm manufacturer and also formerly a UL Engineer (who originally Listed the ELK products) I have to agree with you regarding the UL aspects. The only thing I would say differently is that more and more Residential installs are being inspected in some localities. AHJ's will often reject an install (even if its completed) if the equipment is not UL Listed (or ETL Listed to UL Standards). I recently had a large install at a school denied by an AHJ because a zone expander was not on UL's website (its Listed and just a mistake on the website that I am trying to get UL to fix). The installer contacted me and we worked it out with the AHJ once I proved it was in fact Listed (this was before the first roll of wire was opened at the site). The AHJ was right to question it. Some AHJ's will even go as far as read the installation instructions to verify they installer followed them in his install. Admittedly some AHJ's walk in, see a UL sticker, have a cup of coffee and then leave. It all depends on the inspector as to how detailed of an inspection they do.

Some HAI panels are UL Listed but some of those also have a Listing restricted to professional installers if you check the UL website. Some DIY's are more knowledeable then some professionals though in my opinion.

HAI makes some excellent products and just because they dont all have a UL Listing does not make them an inferior product. You just dont know for sure since UL or ETL did not test some of them (yet at least). In 12 years at UL and another 5 years working for a mfg I have never seen anybody's alarm system pass every single requirement on the first try. Not that they had bad products but some of the requirements are a little overboard and open for interpretation. UL has raised the bar though in the reliability of Alarm systems (especially Commercial Fire lately). UL is an EXTREMELY expensive and time consuming process as far as alarm system evaluations.

I tend to use ELK since I have done so much testing and installed a lot of them now. It could have just as easily been HAI panels had I tested them so much. The little work I have dome with HAI products I cant say I have anything bad to say about them. Someday I might spend more time with there products just for fun.

Which is really better? It all depends. But both are fine products.

For those of us not in the industry, can you guys clarify what part of an HAI system is NOT UL listed?

As a layman, when I look at what they post on their website, it would appear to me that it is UL listed.

The following specs are from the OmniPro II page.

The HAI website said:

Approvals
HAI makes sure that all of our products are tested to the highest industry standards to ensure reliability and safety. To ensure the highest quality, HAI has products tested by Underwriters Laboratories (UL), the most stringent test lab in North America. Many of our competitors refuse or are unable to meet these strict requirements.

In addition to meeting UL requirements, HAI also meets CE requirements. In most cases the requirements and testing for CE are more difficult, but HAI goes the extra distance to ensure the highest quality product available.

UL Residential Fire and Burglary
UL Commercial Burglary
UL Energy Management (Omnistat Thermostats)
FCC Part 15J, Part 68
California Title 24 Compliant
California State Fire Marshall
CP-01 Compliant
CE (European Standard)
IS-60 (Canadian Standard)
RoHS Compliant

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JonW said:

For those of us not in the industry, can you guys clarify what part of an HAI system is NOT UL listed?

As a layman, when I look at what they post on their website, it would appear to me that it is UL listed.

The following specs are from the OmniPro II page.

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Very few if any manufacturer has ALL products UL Listed.

For any model you are concerned about you should check the UL.Com website under certifications and look for the HAI model.

As far as UL Listings for Residential Burglarly it is as follows for HAI:

"Control unit accessories, Models 33A00-1, -4, -5, -6 consoles intended for use with the OMNI control unit.

Control unit subassemblies, Model 10A06-1 zone expander; Model 10A17 serial interface; Models 363519-01, -02 ALC interfaces; Model 19A00 intended for use with 17A00, Omni or Omni Pro.

ALC interface, Model 10A17 Serial Interface. For use with separately Listed control units as indicated in the manufacturers installation instructions.

Combination control units, Models 20A00-1, -2, -3, -4, -5, -6, -50, -51, 21A00-1."

Control unit assemblies, Models 20A00-12, -22, -32, 52, 21A01-1, 21A00-5, 22A00.

Above units intended to be installed by experienced alarm installers only.

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In addition when a mfg states they "meet" or are "compliant" instead of Listed that sometimes means that they tested themselves.

All,

As Digger pointed out, the best way to evaluate whether a specific product from ANY manufacturer is UL-listed is to search the UL.com website. I can assure you that that our security products have been SUBMITTED to UL for testing and LISTED by UL. There are numerous UL standards for different certifications. In general, our security products are listed for residential burglary/fire and commercial security. The requirements for commercial fire are quite stringent and most general purpose alarm systems are not listed for commercial fire.

HAI systems were designed from DAY ONE to be high quality UL-listed security systems with integrated automation features. To state otherwise is simply not true.

As far as UL goes, I never said HAI didn't have UL listings, it just doesn't carry the same UL listings, and in my state with at least 4 large municipalities, where multi-million dollar residences are, and 6 digit low voltage projects, they don't accept HAI because of what listings it carries in a side by side comparison with Elk, and then I also have some issues with certain insurance carriers/underwriters as well citing the same items. I was only stating what my experiences have been, YMMV.

HAI offers trim kits and the like for their systems, that while nice, aren't a dealbreaker for me, neither are having OEM T-stats, outdoor keypads or other peripherals that are just as easy to integrate with the Elk, without having the Elk badge. Having a brass or venitian bronze keypad is far from the first on my list when I look at the products, but I am sure that it is important to some people.

As I said, I'm a dealer for both and once you level the playing field with the equipment to make the inputs/outputs equal, I've found the Elk to be a more robust product on the security side with little things that add up, like aux power output, charging circuts, automatic PTC's vs. pushbutton resets, simple use of keypads to indicate items (Elk's F keys) and macros to be programmed to them, combined with some asthetics, to be more installer and tech friendly. The simple truth for me is when you put them side by side, Elk beats HAI's price point, the differences otherwise are really trivial. The main thing that irks me is the design of HAI's board and lack of ability to have good cable management based on their circuit board design, which in actuality really reminds me of the old Apex destiny stuff, which was an even older design. Makes for a rats nest no matter how hard you try to keep it clean, which really is a stickler and selling point when I want my equipment and install to be a showpiece.

It's a ford/chevy/toyota/honda argument, but those little things make me lean towards Elk over HAI even though I spec the same systems side by side, even sometimes for the same install.

DELInstallations said:

As far as UL goes, I never said HAI didn't have UL listings, it just doesn't carry the same UL listings, and in my state with at least 4 large municipalities, where multi-million dollar residences are, and 6 digit low voltage projects, they don't accept HAI because of what listings it carries in a side by side comparison with Elk, and then I also have some issues with certain insurance carriers/underwriters as well citing the same items. I was only stating what my experiences have been, YMMV.

HAI offers trim kits and the like for their systems, that while nice, aren't a dealbreaker for me, neither are having OEM T-stats, outdoor keypads or other peripherals that are just as easy to integrate with the Elk, without having the Elk badge. Having a brass or venitian bronze keypad is far from the first on my list when I look at the products, but I am sure that it is important to some people.

As I said, I'm a dealer for both and once you level the playing field with the equipment to make the inputs/outputs equal, I've found the Elk to be a more robust product on the security side with little things that add up, like aux power output, charging circuts, automatic PTC's vs. pushbutton resets, simple use of keypads to indicate items (Elk's F keys) and macros to be programmed to them, combined with some asthetics, to be more installer and tech friendly. The simple truth for me is when you put them side by side, Elk beats HAI's price point, the differences otherwise are really trivial. The main thing that irks me is the design of HAI's board and lack of ability to have good cable management based on their circuit board design, which in actuality really reminds me of the old Apex destiny stuff, which was an even older design. Makes for a rats nest no matter how hard you try to keep it clean, which really is a stickler and selling point when I want my equipment and install to be a showpiece.

It's a ford/chevy/toyota/honda argument, but those little things make me lean towards Elk over HAI even though I spec the same systems side by side, even sometimes for the same install.

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Just curious what UL Listings that the AHJ's want that the HAI panels do not have?

I'd have to speak to them and dig out my 5000 page UL books with the related files and documents, but they cited them and I was scrambling with documentation and in the end, they were right, same went with the insurance underwriters on some of these sites.

That said, I've only had to have UL out to certificate the install a handfull of times over 20 years, and that was because of the insurance co's insistance based on risk and dollar values involved at the residences, which I believe the loss worth was well into 9 digits.

Keep in mind a lot of these are municipalities that have multiple inspectors stop in to sites daily, so imagine that payroll and manpower.

DELInstallations said:

I'd have to speak to them and dig out my 5000 page UL books with the related files and documents, but they cited them and I was scrambling with documentation and in the end, they were right, same went with the insurance underwriters on some of these sites.

That said, I've only had to have UL out to certificate the install a handfull of times over 20 years, and that was because of the insurance co's insistance based on risk and dollar values involved at the residences, which I believe the loss worth was well into 9 digits.

Keep in mind a lot of these are municipalities that have multiple inspectors stop in to sites daily, so imagine that payroll and manpower.

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Ok what municipalities and I will research myself or contact them myself. As a former UL Engineer for 12 years working in the Security and Signaling Industry and now the past almost 5 years now working for a mfg of Security and Signaling Equipment as a Compliance Engineer I do not see what HAI is missing as far as UL Listings compared to the ELK (and I Listed the ELK when I worked at UL so I am familiar with the product). The only one Listing I did not notice ( might have missed it) was Home Health Care that I did on the ELK and that has a limited market.

I have Listed many Residential and Commercial Burg and Fire Systems to UL and ULC Standards and ANSI/SIA CP-01 as well as Access Control systems. In addition I have obtained Certifications with the California State Fire Marshall and NYC Fire Department (I have not done Factory Mutual yet but that does not apply to the ELK or HAI systems). I dont see HAI lacking anything unless you have a very special application I am not thinking of or a very unique local requirement (which does happen).

I am not asking you to research this I will if you just tell me the municipalities that you state would not accept the HAI based on not having a specific UL Listing. I deal with these issues on a weekly basis for a living and I curious what I am not aware of where you had a problem with an AHJ.

I have gone head to head with many an AHJ and won a few and lost a few. Sometimes an AHJ will find something that was overlooked etc but many times rationale can be presented to an AHJ that they will accept and allow the product to be used.

I've done the same thing, but sometimes logic does not apply, even when you have the manufacturer's engineers involved and sending documentation to them directly as well as setting up demonstrations and documentation conferences with them. I deal with UL myself all the time in house (I also work for the world's largest fire panel manufacturer) and have spoken with them in great detail about what can and can't be done, etc.

These are all lower Fairfield county and specifically located in gated communities with roving guard response and patrol in addition to the municipality's response, and these areas have always been the worst to work with, high profile installs, clients, etc.

Basically their response to me was that unless it's listed and the evidence provided is notarized in conjunction with a manufacturer's rep in attendance, it's not going to happen, so rather than push the issue further and step on toes or bring the whole deal up to the capitol for an appeal or complaint, I've just provided an alternate panel and listings which were passed without an arguement, and in this case, without truly sacrificing functionality and the differences between the two were not a factor in these cases where push came to shove. . Beaurcracy at it's best.

DELInstallations said:

I've done the same thing, but sometimes logic does not apply, even when you have the manufacturer's engineers involved and sending documentation to them directly as well as setting up demonstrations and documentation conferences with them. I deal with UL myself all the time in house (I also work for the world's largest fire panel manufacturer) and have spoken with them in great detail about what can and can't be done, etc.

These are all lower Fairfield county and specifically located in gated communities with roving guard response and patrol in addition to the municipality's response, and these areas have always been the worst to work with, high profile installs, clients, etc.

Basically their response to me was that unless it's listed and the evidence provided is notarized in conjunction with a manufacturer's rep in attendance, it's not going to happen, so rather than push the issue further and step on toes or bring the whole deal up to the capitol for an appeal or complaint, I've just provided an alternate panel and listings which were passed without an arguement, and in this case, without truly sacrificing functionality and the differences between the two were not a factor in these cases where push came to shove. . Beaurcracy at it's best.

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Fairfield County CT I am assuming. I am not aware of any specific Listing that you would need for that locality that HAI does not have. Your response though makes no sense as to why you are saying the HAI panel is not accepted and ELK is. You keep saying its not Listed but the panels have basically equivalent listings. You are also stating that without the evidence notorized and mfg rep in attendence its not going to happen. So you are saying ELk has a rep there in attendence for you with notorized proof?????? I always thought ELK went above and beyond but that is really great service if that is the case.

I am sure that Brian would also like to get to the bottom of this as AHJ's may not be understanding the issue and unfairly denying the use of the product.

If I have time tomorrow I will call the guys in UL NY office tomorrow and ask them about specfic requirements/Listings needed in Fairfield, CT. If they dont know of any I will try and call the local Fire Marshall and County Building Department next chance I get.

I am also curious like Digger. What exactly is the certification/UL listing HAI lacks?

I have reported on the Elk and HAI systems during conferences at CES and ISC West and both have strengths and weaknesses, but given the 'high dollar' clients you tout, I'm very surprised HAI was not chosen over Elk as they have superior touch screen interfaces and aesthetic, plus seamless integration with video/security cameras, intercoms, and music distribution systems (all of their own brand).

The Elk is a great system, especially for the DIY and probably offers best bang for the buck in a security system, but it lacks a lot of the aesthetics looks that I would think the 'high dollar' crowd would want as I mentioned above.

I truly believe you can not go wrong with either system, it's just a matter of taste and budget.

Work2Play said:

It's funny - I can't count how many times the question of HAI vs. Elk has come up over the years - but I've *never* seen a post go so far off topic and into a "Mine's THIS big!" competition.

I actually do want to see this play out because it's fun... but guys - can you take your pissing match to a new thread that only the "pro's" and those in for a good laugh can follow, and leave the poor Original Poster to his question? I doubt he's running a $40Mil mansion and I doubt UL will show up at his door... so lets give him the information that's relevant to his original question.

OP - I hope with all this, you've gotten the impression that either panel will accomplish exactly what you're after... There are some minor differences, but in the end, either is fine. If you have a feel for one being better than the other, go with it. In my case, it was the Elk because I have a better gut feel about them and I like their keypads better... but I would've been fine either way.

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I dont see this as a pissing match but it is important now to resolve the UL Listing issue (if an issue truly exists) to be fair to HAI. While I tend to use ELK I feel that HAI is getting an unfair treatment and I would like to know why for both personal and professional reasons. If a Pro installer has been told by an AHJ a reason why the HAI panel can not be used and the reason is not legit I would like to see that corrected if it is not true (it should be a fair playing field for all). This will be hard since I still have not seen any reason given by the installer as to why the AHJ will not accept the HAI. Saying that the HAI is lacking a UL Listing (and no specific listing noted) is something that should be seen looking at the website but I am not seeing it.

As a Compliance Engineer for an Alarm Mfg myself I want to see this resolved one way or the other. While it is nice that the ELK is apparently accepted with open arms I would not want the products I am responsible for also denied if the reason is not legitimate. I believe that the products I am responsible for meet (with the exception of the UL Standard for Home Health Care which we did not pursue because of monetary reasons) what the ELK has and some products might have additional standards. We paid a LOT of money and spent a LOT of time to get those listings and if an AHJ is not accepting them I would like to know why. I would guess that the whole situation is just some sort of misunderstanding (it happens often) and hopefully it can be resolved. Possibly I did such a fantastic job listing the ELK system AHJ's just love the listing (a joke and I am sure Spanky will fall out of his chair laughing). There is some truth though to "how" something is worded etc that could affect an AHJ's perception of a product or listing and can sometimes be clarified.

While ELK and HAI (and others) are competitors I think all companies would want to play fair (I know I do).

UL listings aside, a multimillion dollar home would be using Crestron or AMX for automation. HAI would be overkill for security.

You'd use DSC or maybe Elk, because they're well-engineered security panels, and Crestron offers easy 232 integration for these panels.

(I grew up in Fairfield County , but not in a patrolled, gated community; ranch houses there, too.)

Oh, make no mistake about this thread as it is NOT meant to be a 'pissing contest' nor an argument! What is important is the fact that CocoonTech is a trusted source of information for professional installers as well as the DIY type, and to state that HAI may have problems with their UL listing is very serious, and requires further investigation!

i.e. we are NOT trying to :horse: .