UPB weak signal

I've been living in my current house for about two years now and I continue to have intermittent problems with some of my UPB switches. Every time I run a comm test the results seem odd to me. The noise level is always reported at zero or one (mostly zero) but the signal levels are very low.

The odd part is that the lowest signal levels come back as being on the *same phase* with the stronger signals on the other phase. The same phase switches come back with a signal range of 4-15 and the other phase switches have a range of 28-55. A couple of the switches intermittenly don't even get detected when UPStart starts up.

I have the PIM installed on a dedicated circuit and I have an SA phase coupler installed on the panel. I have a large amount of electronics (computers, TVs, a few UPSs) and I'm wondering if they are being signal suckers.

I really like the flexible configuration of UPB switches and I have a considerable amount of money invested. As such I'd like to stay with UPB but the unreliability is driving me nuts.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? I wouldn't be against buying a PCS repeater or similar but I'm not sure that would make any difference.

-- Dave
 
I have the PIM installed on a dedicated circuit and I have an SA phase coupler installed on the panel. I have a large amount of electronics (computers, TVs, a few UPSs) and I'm wondering if they are being signal suckers.

Dave,

Even though you are on a dedicated outlet, you are on one of the two phases with other devices. Have you tried to turn devices off (and unplug) to see if you really may have a noise problem?
 
Even though you are on a dedicated outlet, you are on one of the two phases with other devices. Have you tried to turn devices off (and unplug) to see if you really may have a noise problem?

I did try that although it was a long time ago and I think I was only looking to see if the signal level increased. I may try that again soon. FWIW - I just tried another test on one of the intermittent devices. The test came back with a PIM level of 12 and a device level of 2 (!).

-- Dave
 
I'm curious why you do not think a repeater would help? Isn't this exactly the kind of situation they were made for?

Hi Mike,

I wasn't sure one way or the other. My concern though was that if something was sucking down the signal then the repeater might have little or nothing to work with. I'm hoping to get feedback from someone who has one installed.

-- Dave
 
I'm curious why you do not think a repeater would help? Isn't this exactly the kind of situation they were made for?

Hi Mike,

I wasn't sure one way or the other. My concern though was that if something was sucking down the signal then the repeater might have little or nothing to work with. I'm hoping to get feedback from someone who has one installed.

-- Dave

I hope you get that feedback too as I am becoming very interested in the supportability of UPB. Right now it is the only technology (apart from hard wired solutions) that can be counted on to reliably trigger things from a local paddle press. I would really like to hear that you can can find a way to make it work in any environment with a good whole-house repeater or two.
 
O.K. Don't panic. It can be fixed. A strong signal on the other phase is a good sign. The problem is very likely a signal sucker, rare with UPB, but still possible. How you find it is rather simple.

First run a full UpStart test on all your switches and look for the ones with the lowest signal. Mark any with a signal at 6 or below, at the device or back.

Now with the help of a friend/wife/significant other, and some walkie-talkies, have one person at the computer checking the signal levels of the low devices, and the other person switching off breakers one by one. What I did first is use colored stickers on my breakers to identify "Same" and "Other" phase, and mark each breaker. They most likely alternate, S, O, S, O, etc.

O.K. did signal levels jump when you shut off any breaker? If so, then you found the problem area. No, check each device plugged in to that breaker. Using this method you should be able to isolate the problem device or devices. From experience, its a kitchen appliance or TV or stereo component. At this point you may need to filter the troublemaker device.

Good luck. You should be able to find it pretty fast using this method.
 
A recent thread by Steve also showed that a dimming outside light fixture made by Heith Zenith caused UPB problems
 
O.K. Don't panic. It can be fixed. A strong signal on the other phase is a good sign. The problem is very likely a signal sucker, rare with UPB, but still possible. How you find it is rather simple.

First run a full UpStart test on all your switches and look for the ones with the lowest signal. Mark any with a signal at 6 or below, at the device or back.

Now with the help of a friend/wife/significant other, and some walkie-talkies, have one person at the computer checking the signal levels of the low devices, and the other person switching off breakers one by one. What I did first is use colored stickers on my breakers to identify "Same" and "Other" phase, and mark each breaker. They most likely alternate, S, O, S, O, etc.

O.K. did signal levels jump when you shut off any breaker? If so, then you found the problem area. No, check each device plugged in to that breaker. Using this method you should be able to isolate the problem device or devices. From experience, its a kitchen appliance or TV or stereo component. At this point you may need to filter the troublemaker device.

Good luck. You should be able to find it pretty fast using this method.
Thanks for the suggestion. This sounds like a very logical troubleshooting method! I can even do it by myself by taking the laptop to the breaker panel (I'm using remote desktop to get in to the PC that actually has the PIM connected). I'll do some tests and report my findings.

-- Dave
 
O.K. Don't panic. It can be fixed. A strong signal on the other phase is a good sign. The problem is very likely a signal sucker, rare with UPB, but still possible. How you find it is rather simple.

First run a full UpStart test on all your switches and look for the ones with the lowest signal. Mark any with a signal at 6 or below, at the device or back.

Now with the help of a friend/wife/significant other, and some walkie-talkies, have one person at the computer checking the signal levels of the low devices, and the other person switching off breakers one by one. What I did first is use colored stickers on my breakers to identify "Same" and "Other" phase, and mark each breaker. They most likely alternate, S, O, S, O, etc.

O.K. did signal levels jump when you shut off any breaker? If so, then you found the problem area. No, check each device plugged in to that breaker. Using this method you should be able to isolate the problem device or devices. From experience, its a kitchen appliance or TV or stereo component. At this point you may need to filter the troublemaker device.

Good luck. You should be able to find it pretty fast using this method.
Thanks for the suggestion. This sounds like a very logical troubleshooting method! I can even do it by myself by taking the laptop to the breaker panel (I'm using remote desktop to get in to the PC that actually has the PIM connected). I'll do some tests and report my findings.

-- Dave

I did something similar to find some Insteon devices that were spewing out garbage earlier in the year. It is a great way to narrow the search area.

I have since switched to UPB and have had ZERO problems. Reliabilty for me is 100% with UPB and I have not had to replace a single device since installing them. I could not say that for Insteon.
 
I'll do some tests and report my findings.
After a quick test I discovered that there are several circuits that are sucking signal. Collectively the drop is fairly substantial. The equipment on the circuits I've identified so far is my audio/video equipment. The only circuit I haven't yet tested is my main UPS (I'll test that next).
 
I found that in reality one of the big suckers was my main UPS (it was plugged in to a different circuit than I thought). Now to the big question - what do UPB users recommend as a good solution to filtering out these signal suckers? Does anyone have experience with the Simply Automated ZNF10A-P? This looks like it might be a good solution.
 
The device absorbing the signal; actually made the signal lower than the other phases signal.
 
I have a similar problem and have been trying various things to improve sig level on several switches. One thing I discovered fairly early on was that the SA Phase Coupler actually reduced the sig level to several switches. Replaced it with one from HAI and sig levels improved all around. Has to do with Inverting vs Non-Inverting couplers (forget which one is which). Think I saw it discussed somewhere that the one best suited for an install has something to do with the transformer supplying your mains power (may be wrong on that ?)
 
Back
Top